9 - Luis Suárez - v1

[Manuel Traquete]

Indeed.

Interestingly, the CPS only charge you if they feel "on the balance of probabilities" it can be proven you committed an offence. Terry has already fulfilled the standard of proof that resulted in Suarez's ban. So even if Terry is found not guilty, technically the FA should have enough to ban him, not necessarily for racism but "abusive language that referred to colour" offence that Suarez was charged and convicted of. Really, there should be no question of Terry getting an eventual ban.

From the information that's coming out in today's papers, it looks as if Liverpool are looking to persuade the FA to increase the legal burden of proof to beyond reasonable doubt (coincidentally, i can see the FA taking that up right if/when Terry gets off). Have seen some good arguments for why they wouldn't necessarily be a good thing, i.e. it'll make it a lot more difficult for black players that genuinely experience racist abuse to report it but then on the other hand, with the number of television camera's in football these days, people watching live, players on the pitch, racism should be a lot more easier to spot? hence why increasing the burden of proof isn't so bad when it comes to football imo.

In regards to what other fans are saying, i must say i find it a tad insulting that people are so willing to accept that Liverpool will put their reputation on line for a racist. What is the purpose of that? the easiest thing for Liverpool to do would have been to throw Suarez to the lions. Has anyone not just stopped and thought "Liverpool must actually genuinely believe in Suarez's innocence to put up with so much crap from an amazing amount of nobodies that keep finding themselves in the newspapers". There are some things which are a lot more important than tribalism, and racism is one of those things. Other things much important than tribalism is an innocent man being convicted of an abhorrent hate crime.

Well yeah, if the same standard is applied, Terry should at the very least get the same ban as Suarez. But I'd rather the same mistake was not repeated twice. Two wrongs don't make a right.

But I'm pretty convinced Terry will be found guilty by the CPS, the evidence on his case seems to be pretty solid.

Liverpool's demand to increase the standard of proof makes perfect sense. Not only is genuine racial abuse relatively easy to spot and prove in football (for the reasons you mention), but, as the saying goes, it's better for four guilty men to go free than one innocent man to be imprisoned. Meaning that, if it comes to that, it's preferrable that a guilty man gets away with it than an innocent man gets unfairly punished. Increasing the standard of proof might make it harder for guilt to be proved, but it also makes it harder that innocent men get punished, which supersedes every possible negative.

Agree with the last paragraph. It'd have been easy for Liverpool to comply with this complete tribalism and trivialization of racism, but they did well to stand by Suarez, they did what they should have done. It's actually pretty great the way Liverpool supported Suarez through the whole thing. If not for that support, he'd probably have decided to leave England (and who could blame him?) after being convicted of an abhorrent hate crime with no evidence.

It works both ways, don't you think? If you're letting off the accused due to lack of concrete evidence, it may encourage further such incidents whereby any player can make a racist slur to a fellow professional in isolation, knowing that without concrete proof he stands to win.

I don't necessarily believe any legal action or steps can completely eradicate this issue. It will act as a deterrent for a period, but human temper/nature is such that there will always be such cases, even if done quietly. Change starts from Self-sensitizing, education, and awareness on the subject.

I do agree. That said, with the number of on-pitch cameras, not to mention potential witnesses, on the pitch, it's very hard that a genuine racial insult can't be proven beyond reasonable doubt. As a principle, I always consider people innocent until proven guilty, but in some cases, like most people, I'm "convinced" that a certain person is guilty even if there's no evidence (not that me being "convinced" has any actual value as far as finding the truth is concerned). But in this case I'm not convinced at all that Suarez is guilty of what Evra is accusing him. Evra says Suarez insulted him racially no less than seven times, yet no one can confirm this? I guess it is within the realms of possibility, but it's a bit bizarre.

Also, even if it was not, on paper, simple to prove it, it'd always be better to increase the standard of proof. It's always preferrable to leave a guilty person unpunished than to punish an innocent one.

I do agree that no legal steps can eradicate this issue. That can only be done if people became aware of its enormity, which can only be achieved through proper education. Unfortunately, I don't think that will happen any time soon. I wouldn't be worried if only a few posters on online forums had this attitude towards racism (of trivializing the issue), but unfortunately it's much bigger than that.

Treating the Suarez case seriously wouldn't have solved the issue, but it'd have passed a stronger message. A message that racism is a very serious issue and it will be addressed as such. Convicting Suarez while we still don't know what happened on that day and what exactly was said (we have seven different versions at least) doesn't exactly send a strong message, does it?

 

[Dinho]

Way to add nothing to the discussion.

Way to add to your post count.

 

[La Furia]

Way to add to your post count.

If anything I'm embarrassed at my post count. I need more hobbies.

 

[Metaphysical]

I hope Kenny & Luis are proud of themselves, they've brought institutionalised racism back to English football.

 

[gingerless]

It has nothing to do with the word, but more with the sentiment behind it. That's how it is with languages. Language is neutral.

If a friend of mine calls me a fucktard then I don't give a crap. If some guy I don't know calls me a fucktard then I get pissed.

That's the case here. Sudamericano isn't a slur like the N-word but I'm very sure Evra said it in a condescending way that was highly degrading.

Do you think when Suarez said "negro", Evra suddenly started thinking back to the conditions of African slaves during colonial days? Do you think he thought long and hard about where the word stems from, the historical pain associated with it and why it's considered profanity? No. He knew instinctively that it was a pejorative because of sentiment behind it, undoubtedly guided by how it was said and the tensions at the time between the two.

I don't condone racism because I don't believe in racism or racial superiority. But in this case, it was two-sided. Both called the other something degrading and meant it to be degrading. The only difference is that what Suarez said was a word close enough to another word that can found in the un-official Little Black Book of Slurs.

The ensuing drama on the other hand is an entirely other matter.

this.

i don't want to add to this shitfest of a 'discussion' but, ugh.... do people understand the difference in saying something racist and actually being racist? and stop labeling anyone who says anything against evra a defender of racism, like, fuck?

 

[Canto]

I heard they started signing Luis name after the incident...they're such a classy bunch are the scousers. I'm sure the fan in question is from down town detroit where it's perfectly acceptable to say what he said. Clearly it's just anti Liverpool bias again!!!

 

[tariqo]

he should start thinking about leaving this crap league , a league where 1 ugly loser motherfucker like andy carroll worth £35m

he would fit easily in teams like juve or our barca

 

[La Furia]

I hope Kenny & Luis are proud of themselves, they've brought institutionalised racism back to English football.

Yeah because there was definitely no racism in English football until those scousers and their swarthy sudaca allies racially abused Evra.

Come on man, you are better than that. Incidents like this bring the rats out of the rat hole, but the rats have been there the whole time.

 

[Canto]

Yeah because there was definitely no racism in English football until those scousers and their swarthy sudaca allies racially abused Evra.

Come on man, you are better than that. Incidents like this bring the rats out of the rat hole, but the rats have been there the whole time.

Brb going killing somebody...it's not the first time it's happened in Ireland so I'd say people will understand and accept it.

 

[Metaphysical]

Yeah because there was definitely no racism in English football until those scousers and their swarthy sudaca allies racially abused Evra.

Come on man, you are better than that. Incidents like this bring the rats out of the rat hole, but the rats have been there the whole time.

institutionalised racism.

obviously every club has rats, but Kenny and Luis have whipped the rats in Liverpool into a frenzy. they've established themselves as a club that don't think racial abuse is a big deal (they say they are against it, but their actions say the opposite). it can be no surprise that their fans have started acting like this out in the open.

and anyway, I was being dramatic.

 

[Sergio]

Yep, its intrinsic of the club. Jamie Carragher is a holocaust denier for example. Probably.

 

[Hatem Ben Arfa]

I hope Kenny & Luis are proud of themselves, they've brought institutionalised racism back to English football.

I had a feeling something like this would happen with some Liverpool fans after this whole Evra-Suarez saga.

why am I not surprised.

 

[Ambrosia]

This little incident has just proven which posters here are incapable of carrying out some critical thinking. Does this forum do ignore lists?

Merseyside Police @MerseyPolice 6m

We can confirm that no one has been arrested 2night on suspicion of racially aggravated behaviour during tonight's FA Cup fixture at Anfield.

 

[Canto]

Yeah the kid obviously got distressed for no reason

 

[Ambrosia]

Well yeah, if the same standard is applied, Terry should at the very least get the same ban as Suarez. But I'd rather the same mistake was not repeated twice. Two wrongs don't make a right.

But I'm pretty convinced Terry will be found guilty by the CPS, the evidence on his case seems to be pretty solid.

Liverpool's demand to increase the standard of proof makes perfect sense. Not only is genuine racial abuse relatively easy to spot and prove in football (for the reasons you mention), but, as the saying goes, it's better for four guilty men to go free than one innocent man to be imprisoned. Meaning that, if it comes to that, it's preferrable that a guilty man gets away with it than an innocent man gets unfairly punished. Increasing the standard of proof might make it harder for guilt to be proved, but it also makes it harder that innocent men get punished, which supersedes every possible negative.

Agree with the last paragraph. It'd have been easy for Liverpool to comply with this complete tribalism and trivialization of racism, but they did well to stand by Suarez, they did what they should have done. It's actually pretty great the way Liverpool supported Suarez through the whole thing. If not for that support, he'd probably have decided to leave England (and who could blame him?) after being convicted of an abhorrent hate crime with no evidence.

If it's possible, i agree and disagree with you.

I agree that two wrongs don't make a right but i also feel consistency does help to take the edge off any feeling of injustice you may feel.

This Suarez incident has been very harsh, both in terms of footballing punishment as well as how he's viewed by the world for the rest of his life. We should also remember that the FA thought long and hard about how they went about this and they obviously concluded a precedent of sort needed to be made and so Luis was made their poster boy for their fight against racism. They have trapped themselves into this position. They knew what they were getting into.

The only way the FA can regain any authority in this topic is if they consistently apply the precedent they've set on themselves. At this moment, Liverpool feel aggrieved because this isn't the first time Liverpool have been picked on by the FA to make a fickle, one incident statement (Mascherano being sent off at OT because of the so called respect campaign). If Liverpool see this precedent being applied consistently the sense of injustice they feel will begrudgingly disappear. The FA ditching this precedent which has been so widely (but wrongly) praised, just in time for the England captain's case just stinks.

Final point, Suarez has been convicted for a football offence and not for racism as the world seems to believe. Evra and the FA specifically stated they don't believe Suarez is a racist (which i personally find weird because if Suarez did say the things Evra accuses him of saying, Suarez IS a racist). If we accept that, with or without a criminal conviction, Terry can be charged for the same offence.