9 - Robert Lewandowski

KingLeo10

Senior Member
They are different, which is why the "historical argument" makes no sense here.
City and PSG have the 1st and 2nd most valuable squad in world football, Chelsea is No 5, they are/were the favourites to win. Leverkusen, Porto, Marseille, Dortmund etc were not.
Megaclubs like PSG and City are not just a trend on a good run like these clubs you wanna compare them to. This isn't about historical clubs. Ajax is a historical club and it would be an upset if they'd win.

The limitless budget Manchester City and perennial PL winners have been beaten by Monaco, Lyon (lol), and Spurs in CL in last 6 years.

Juventus, the 9 time in a row Serie A champions were beaten by Ajax, Lyon (lol) and Porto in last 5 years.

Barca, with a 1 loss league season against CL winning RM, were beaten by Roma.

Bayern were beaten by Villareal and have won like 10 straight Bundesliga.

PSG lost to United Academy kids.

RM lost to Ajax.

There are upsets everywhere. The "too big, too consistent" argument falls apart the moment you mention chokers like City and PSG.
 

Yannik

Senior Member
The limitless budget Manchester City and perennial PL winners have been beaten by Monaco, Lyon (lol), and Spurs in CL in last 6 years.

Juventus, the 9 time in a row Serie A champions were beaten by Lyon (lol) and Porto in last 5 years.

Barca, with a 1 loss league season against CL winning RM, were beaten by Roma.

Bayern were beaten by Villareal and have won like 10 straight Bundesliga.

PSG lost to United Academy kids.

You are talking about teams having bad days in R16s or quarterfinals. These aren't new, nor are they sustainable.
Which is why these teams that have done the upsets did not go on to play in the final. That still happened regularly in the 2000s.
Noone is arguing big teams never lose. But there's always big teams coming out on top in the end.

There are upsets everywhere. The "too big, too consistent" argument falls apart the moment you mention chokers like City and PSG.

No it doesn't. They lost vs Bayern and Madrid that are just bigger and more consistent.
 
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KingLeo10

Senior Member
You are talking about upsets in R16s or quarterfinals.

Logic would indicate that the "too big, too consistent teams" would be even MORE likely to consistently win in the earlier KO stages (R16s or QFs). And not be upset...

Anyway, I'm providing at least data points and you've dug in on a narrative you've long held about "big money ruining football" and are just applying another variant of that here. For the record, money has impacted football parity for the worse, but it hasn't manifested in CL finalist distribution just yet. Teams with a pedigree of winning keep making these CL finals.

City and PSG didn't just lose v Bayern and RM. They lost v United (literally academy kids), Lyon, Spurs, and Monaco. Why should the former count and not the latter? That is cherry picking data at its finest.
 

Yannik

Senior Member
Logic would indicate that the "too big, too consistent teams" would be even MORE likely to consistently win in the earlier KO stages (R16s or QFs). And not be upset...

Anyway, I'm providing at least data points and you've dug in on a narrative you've long held about "big money ruining football" and are just applying another variant of that here. For the record, money has impacted football parity for the worse, but it hasn't manifested in CL finalist distribution just yet. Teams with a pedigree of winning keep making these CL finals.

City and PSG didn't just lose v Bayern and RM. They lost v United (literally academy kids), Lyon, Spurs, and Monaco. Why should the former count and not the latter? That is cherry picking data at its finest.

You are looking at 10 years of football in which I'd say around 6-7 super clubs exist and you named idk 10 games in all that time in which this larger pool of consistent teams to pick from got upset. How is that not cherrypicking? Why ignore all the other games and the obvious trend? Without checking I'd say during the 2000s those 10 upsets happen in 2-3 CL years.

And there were bigger upsets. ACTUAL upsets, like underdogs playing finals, winning silverware. Not just the occasional underdog unexpectedly winning an unlikely knockout tie vs a team that normally stomps them. These upsets differ both in frequency and relevance.
 
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Yannik

Senior Member
In the CL KOs? No chance. I actually will go through the CL KO data myself to ascertain this. But that simply doesn't pass the common sense check IMO.

You really just have to look at the 2003/2004 season to see a CL KO round that will never repeat.
 

Morten

Senior Member
8370097.jpg


None of the CL semi-finalists of last season had anywhere the caliber of players as this XI :lol: Stop it.

Insane line-up.
 

Total-Football

Senior Member
8370097.jpg


None of the CL semi-finalists of last season had anywhere the caliber of players as this XI :lol: Stop it.

Great line up but cafu and Maldini were old already. Crespo is by no means a world class player although a very good classical striker. Gattuso is also a bit overrated because his offensive input is almsot non existent. That team also was dry because it was a defensive minded team who care more not to concede than to score. Having said all of it. Yes. It was a very good team overall.
 

odrzut

Member
Luck factor can't be dismissed in club Football.

Were 2012 Chelsea a better side than 2012 Barca Real Bayern? Fuck No! The best always doesn't win.


This is true now as it was true in 90s - quality difference between teams has diminishing returns on who wins. Team A is 2 times better than team B - A will win 70% of the time. A is 10 times better - it will win 80% of the time. A is 100 times better - it will win 90% of the time. I've seen UCL-winning Bayern lose to some 4th bundesliga farmers in a non-friendly game.

So tournament style competitions where 1 game changes the whole ladder - are MOSTLY determined by luck. Even if quality differences between teams in 90s were 10x and now they are 100x - luck still matters a lot in tournaments, cause with 90% chance of winning the best team has a good chance to lose to worse teams at least once. And that loss might knock them out or at least make the ladder significantly worse for them, which gives advantage to slightly worse teams.

So you have Man City and PSG who never won UCL and Chelsea has 2 :) No point trying to read too much into this, it's just inherent randomness in the tournament format. I prefer double elimination format (like in starcraft tournaments) - less random and more fun cause if you knock someone off to losers' bracket - he might win all its matches in that bracket and meet you in the final for revenge.

As for player quality - in general it's better now. You might not see it, cause the pace increased so much that flashy skills are much harder to pull of now than in 90s. And there's less focus on 1v1 because of tactics. This doesn't mean modern players can't do flashy 1v1 skills - if you put them in 90s game they would do it no problem.

But there are exceptions like Ronaldo Phenomeno - I have no doubt peak R9 would do great in modern football cause of how physical (and still skillful) he was. I have my doubts about Maradona cause he was quite slow.
 
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JohnN

Senior Member
No need to go far in the past. Messi was as physical as you can get and still nutmeged everyone in his path just a couple of years ago. Neymar too. We just don't have a crop of players with special technical abilities currently. The game is indeed leaning towards physicality but if a team has a superstar performing (a.k.a. Madrid's benzema last season) all that physicality and tactical discipline goes to waste, as displayed in the last cl.
A player's x factor is still very much relevant. But it's no more sufficient on its own to win you title. You need the supporting cast to be on the required tactical and physical level, to not be stomped by machines like Bayern and co.
 

serghei

Senior Member
Oil clubs are chockers until they are not. Money tend to win out in the long when the risk of funds disappearing is a non factor.

Florentino sees this and this is why he pushes for the Superleague.
 

Birdy

Senior Member
https://twitter.com/BarcaSpaces/status/1564334550620200960

It just leaves you at a loss for words.

One of the most outrageous goals ever.

That cam gives the false impression that he intended to shoot with a backheel!

It was deflected brother. He was intending to backheel to Dembele.

Same with the deflected assist to Ansu last week.
He has been great so far, but some of his actions being blown out of proportion doesn't pay him justice
 

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