Alexis Sanchez

[Kerrybai]

IMO, that's because Leo absorbs much of the team's offensive play. That's just wrong if you ask me. Messi, however great, is one piece of the puzzle, not the whole puzzle. If Messi is positioned in a worse position than let's say Tello, our players will pass the ball to Messi, because he's Messi. We have put Lionel on a piedestal and this is a dangerous game to play. His ego is becoming bigger and bigger and I fear that, day by day, the ambitious, hard working and unselfish Messi that formed a deadly trio with Eto'o and Henry in 2009 will be gone.

Gladly, Tata Martinez is not Villanova in terms of personality, he looks like a man who's well in charge and is willing to treat all the players the same. Subbing Messi showed me he has balls. Messi is not intangible. He is one of the eleven Barca players who get on the pitch and try to win every game.

Some may read what I say here and think I don't like Messi. It isn't true.

My apologies for derailing the thread but I can never ignore rubbish posts relating to Messi.

2009/2010 - 4.7 shots per game
2010/2011 - 4.5 shots per game
2011/2012 - 5.5 shots per game
2012/2013 - 5.1 shots per game

Over the course of 4 seasons Messi's spg has increased by 0.4. This is hardly surprising as he has improved his game every year. However there is no indication that he is absorbing an unnatural portion of our attack.

Your belief that Messi has been put on a pedestal or obsorbs too much of our attack is rubbish, it's a myth you have created. What's most worrying is that some people agree with you.

I am looking forward to Jiopi's return.

 

[ThwiX]

My apologies for derailing the thread but I can never ignore rubbish posts relating to Messi.

2009/2010 - 4.7 shots per game
2010/2011 - 4.5 shots per game
2011/2012 - 5.5 shots per game
2012/2013 - 5.1 shots per game

Over the course of 4 seasons Messi's spg has increased by 0.4. This is hardly surprising as he has improved his game every year. However there is no indication that he is absorbing an unnatural portion of our attack.

Your belief that Messi has been put on a pedestal or obsorbs too much of our attack is rubbish, it's a myth you have created. What's most worrying is that some people agree with you.

I am looking forward to Jiopi's return.

+1

 

[numero]

My apologies for derailing the thread but I can never ignore rubbish posts relating to Messi.

2009/2010 - 4.7 shots per game
2010/2011 - 4.5 shots per game
2011/2012 - 5.5 shots per game
2012/2013 - 5.1 shots per game

Over the course of 4 seasons Messi's spg has increased by 0.4. This is hardly surprising as he has improved his game every year. However there is no indication that he is absorbing an unnatural portion of our attack.

Your belief that Messi has been put on a pedestal or obsorbs too much of our attack is rubbish, it's a myth you have created. What's most worrying is that some people agree with you.

I am looking forward to Jiopi's return.

100% agreed mate.

 

[Paganinisrvnge]

If Alexis and Neymar can score with consistency and Messi stays fit; the Barcelona attack will be one of the best in the world again. Nemesis is going to crush opponents left and right.

 

[Yugi]

did you guys mention Nemesis?

 

[oz187]

My apologies for derailing the thread but I can never ignore rubbish posts relating to Messi.

2009/2010 - 4.7 shots per game0
2010/2011 - 4.5 shots per game
2011/2012 - 5.5 shots per game
2012/2013 - 5.1 shots per game

Do you have the stats for the other forwards? That would show better what the rest are doing...

 

[Kerrybai]

Do you have the stats for the other forwards? That would show better what the rest are doing...

Pedro
2009/2010 - 1.1 spg (12/34 sub appearances)
2010/2011 - 1.8 spg (9/33 sub appearances)
2011/2012 - 1.4 spg (9/29 sub appearances)
2012/2013 - 1.5 spg (5/28 sub appearances)
2013/2014 - 1.9 spg (small sample size)

Sanchez
2011/2012 - 1.8 spg (5/25 sub appearances)
2012/2013 - 1.1 spg (11/29 sub appearances)
2013/2014 - 2.3 spg (small sample size)

Tello
2012/2013 - 1.5 spg (10/22 sub appearances)
2013/2014 - 1.7 spg (4/6 sub appearances)

Neymar
2013/2014 - 3 spg (small sample size)

David Villa
2010/2011 - 3.9 spg (2/34 sup appearances)
2011/2012 - N/A
2012/2013 - 1.6 spg (11/28 sup appearances)

Ibra
2009/2010 - 3.4 spg (6/29 sub appearances)

I included sub appearances to make the stats 'fair'. Obviously sub appearances reduce the spg statastic. Shots per 90 minutes is probably a better measure. I think Pedro's spg rate shows just how ridiculous it is to suggest that Messi has become a ball hog etc.

For the last 2 seasons we have been crying out for deadly forward to take the weight off Messi's shoulders. Sanchez was never a prolific forward so we shouldn't expect him to suddenly become one. Pedro has a fantastic conversion rate but again he is not a prolific forward which is a good reason to never have both Sanchez and Pedro on the field at the same time.

Neymar's start to the season has been very encouraging. Finally it appears we have found a replacement for Villa (first season). He gets into dangerous positions and has the courage to shoot whenever he finds a yard of space. Hopefully Sanchez will gain some confidence and start shooting more too.

 

[oz187]

Actually those statistics seem to show a significant decline in the other forwards. Ibra and Villa were well over 3 spg but the past two seasons the other forwards are all well below 2. Do you also have the stats for Eto'o and Henry(and Bojan too I guess)?

 

[footyfan]

I don't think anyone can deny that Barcelona actively look to give the ball to Messi in the final third. There have been numerous times where other players have been ignored even though they were in a better position. This doesn't mean Messi has become a ball hog, it's just a consequence of how our game is currently built.

Shots per goal alone is not a very good argument when we're talking about the entire final third. Even then, the numbers clearly suggest that the number of shots taken by our other forwards has reduced greatly despite the fact that Messi's spg hasn't gone up significantly. This could possibly be because we cannot create enough shooting opportunities as we keep passing to Messi so other teams know how to block us off.

With Neymar's arrival, I hope to see a lot more variety in our final third play.

 

[Luftstalag14]

I don't think anyone can deny that Barcelona actively look to give the ball to Messi in the final third. There have been numerous times where other players have been ignored even though they were in a better position. This doesn't mean Messi has become a ball hog, it's just a consequence of how our game is currently built.

Shots per goal alone is not a very good argument when we're talking about the entire final third. Even then, the numbers clearly suggest that the number of shots taken by our other forwards has reduced greatly despite the fact that Messi's spg hasn't gone up significantly. This could possibly be because we cannot create enough shooting opportunities as we keep passing to Messi so other teams know how to block us off.

With Neymar's arrival, I hope to see a lot more variety in our final third play.

Well said.

There is no denying that our attacking play is built around Messi, even with Neymar being here today. Simply because there is a much greater chance that Messi will put it in or make something good out of it. I don't think it is going to change over night ( and I don't want to, as long as Messi can still deliver for us), but having Neymar will definitely help.

I agree with serghei that when other players are in a better position the ball should be given to them, not Messi.

 

[Kerrybai]

Actually those statistics seem to show a significant decline in the other forwards. Ibra and Villa were well over 3 spg but the past two seasons the other forwards are all well below 2. Do you also have the stats for Eto'o and Henry(and Bojan too I guess)?

All I was initially arguing is that Messi hasn't been put on any sort of pedastal where he absorobs too much of the attack etc. I think Messi's spg stats support that argument.

Regarding our forwards for the last 2 years I agree there clearly has been a decline. Villa's decline could be attributed to his injury/lack of playing time.

Pedro is involved just as much as he was in 2010 but his goal tally has dropped. Perhaps his finishing took a turn for the worse.

Sanchez meanwhile is just Sanchez. His spg rate at Udinese was as follows.
2009/2010 - 1.8
2010/2011 - 2.3

His spg rate was very poor last season, perhaps due to a lack of confidence which he so often mentions. This season looks promising for him.

Unfortunately the stats only go back as far as 2009/2010. I will have a look though and see if I can find anything.

 

[oz187]

All I was initially arguing is that Messi hasn't been put on any sort of pedastal where he absorobs too much of the attack etc. I think Messi's spg stats support that argument.

His numbers show that these past two seasons his spg has increased 10-20% compared to the previous two seasons. It also doesn't show the plays where he didn't shoot. With the increase in marking he's had to endure it may well be that he gets less shots relative to the amount of possession he receives?

 

[Kerrybai]

I don't think anyone can deny that Barcelona actively look to give the ball to Messi in the final third. There have been numerous times where other players have been ignored even though they were in a better position. This doesn't mean Messi has become a ball hog, it's just a consequence of how our game is currently built.

Shots per goal alone is not a very good argument when we're talking about the entire final third. Even then, the numbers clearly suggest that the number of shots taken by our other forwards has reduced greatly despite the fact that Messi's spg hasn't gone up significantly. This could possibly be because we cannot create enough shooting opportunities as we keep passing to Messi so other teams know how to block us off.

With Neymar's arrival, I hope to see a lot more variety in our final third play.

I agree with the part in bold. Messi is the focal point of our attack whether it's dropping deep to collect the ball and get everything moving or getting on the end of a final ball.

The spg stats are useful as some people seem to think that Messi as the focal point disrupts the team. They seem to be under the impression that this is something new, however it has been like this for quite some time now.

This doesn't mean Messi has become a ball hog, it's just a consequence of how our game is currently built...This could possibly be because we cannot create enough shooting opportunities as we keep passing to Messi so other teams know how to block us off.

I can't agree with you here. I simply don't believe that our play gravitates more to Messi now than it did during Villa's first season, although it certainly appears to be the popular opinion. For Messi to be blocked off as you said he would need to do something with the ball, either pass it, lose it or attempt a shot.

I am going to throw out one last set of stats I promise this is the last.
2009/2010 - Lost the ball 5.5 passed the ball 44.3 - Longball/throughball total 120
2010/2011 - Lost the ball 4.7pg - passed the ball 67.7pg - Longball/throughball total 171
2011/2012 - Lost the ball4.2 - passed the ball63.8 - Longball/throughball total221
2012/2013 - Lost the ball3.9 - passed the ball55 - Longball/throughball total136
2013/2014 - Lost the ball 2.03 - passed the ball 46.5 - Longball/throughball total N/A

His passed per game were the lowest when Ibra was in the team, and the reasons for this were obvious. Even then his involvement wasn't far off last season.

So in conclusion we can clearly see that the team isn't favouring Messi any more than have done in the past and he isn't the reason our forwards have been so poor. The team revolves around him now no more than it did in 2010/2011.

The only reason we have become a 'one man team' is because that one man has left everyone behind him.

 

[Kerrybai]

His numbers show that these past two seasons his spg has increased 10-20% compared to the previous two seasons. It also doesn't show the plays where he didn't shoot. With the increase in marking he's had to endure it may well be that he gets less shots relative to the amount of possession he receives?

I looked into that but it doesn't appear to be the case as you can see with his passing stats I posted. Here they are again with total passes included.
2009 - 44.3 per game 1549 total
2010 - 67.7 2233 total
2011 - 63.8 2359 total
2012 - 55 1760 total

His possession has slightly decreased since Villa's first season. Our general play certainly gravitates more to him than we saw in 2009 although it should be noted that he had 5 sub appearances that year which would decrease his number.

For my money our general play leans toward Messi no more than it did in 2010/2011 and in that season Pedo and Villa were pefectly capable of shining in our team, perhaps not to the Henry,etoo, extent but they were pretty close.

P.S. Edit ( I left this part out ) With regard to players seeking Messi while ignoring others it could be true. Messi had less possession last season than he did in 2010/2011 but his shot count increased slightly. However he had far less possesion during Ibra's year at the club and his shot count was close to last seasons. IMO Messi has become a far great striker/poacher over the past seasons which the reason he gets on the end of our attacks more often.

Messi's improvement as a striker has seen him finish more moves but it should in no way be detrimental to our other attackers. Neymar will hopefully prove this to be true come the end of the season.

Thankfully I think we may be back to a competent trio in attack now with Neymar's signing and the rebirth of Sanchez. :barca scarf:

 

[Co0ter]

My apologies for derailing the thread but I can never ignore rubbish posts relating to Messi.

2009/2010 - 4.7 shots per game
2010/2011 - 4.5 shots per game
2011/2012 - 5.5 shots per game
2012/2013 - 5.1 shots per game

Over the course of 4 seasons Messi's spg has increased by 0.4. This is hardly surprising as he has improved his game every year. However there is no indication that he is absorbing an unnatural portion of our attack.

Your belief that Messi has been put on a pedestal or obsorbs too much of our attack is rubbish, it's a myth you have created. What's most worrying is that some people agree with you.

I am looking forward to Jiopi's return.

It's not rubbish at all. Shots per game is a single statistic and is a mere fraction of the impact the guy is trying to address. How about all the passes that never make it to Messi because they are forced; when more open, better options are available. That's a huge impact and it has nothing to do with shots or shooting.

If you don't think to a minor degree that passes are forced to Messi at times when they could be given to others...then you, or anyone else agreeing, are either in denial or just aren't paying attention.

I'm not saying it happens all the time or is a huge problem- but it does indeed happen.