Andrés Iniesta

[footyfan]

So if Xavi avoids a tackle in midfield by turning away, is considered a successful dribble.

Nope. I'm not too sure of that. Look at this video. According to whoscored/Opta, Iniesta had 5 dribbles this game. But watch the video, and there's more than 5 instances where he turns away to avoid tackles/does what I'm talking about.

 

[jiopi]

I'm not going to watch the video because it's actually irrelevant, dribbles and dispossession stats are highly effected by each other, like turnovers with throughballs, key passes, and other "creative" passes.

 

[ceefoo]

So making rather unchallenged possession passes in midfield, rather than more direct and creative passes, is better quality wise? Yeah, we saw it against Milan in the 1st leg.

Iniesta doesn't make creative passes?

Do I really need to pull out his Assist numbers?

Now you really have mugged yourself off.

 

[jiopi]

Iniesta doesn't make creative passes?

Do I really need to pull out his Assist numbers?

Now you really have mugged yourself off.

Where did I say that?

I think you are gonna get surprised with the statistics I will give you from the last 4 seasons.

 

[footyfan]

I'm not going to watch the video because it's actually irrelevant, dribbles and dispossession stats are highly effected by each other, like turnovers with throughballs, key passes, and other "creative" passes.

So you're saying these stats are correlated, yet you used them as independent stats to create a "dribble vs dispossession ratio" (in addition completely ignoring that the dribble stats are not completely exhaustive of all the dribbling actions performed by a player; which infact can only be measured by actually watching the game).

I'm not actually disputing that Messi is better than Iniesta - but from what I've seen (and I've only missed < 7 games in the past 4 years) Iniesta is harder to dispossess than Messi.

 

[ceefoo]

Here's another one:

Messi will often attempt a dribble in midfield and sometimes loses the ball, exposing the defence.

When Iniesta attempts a dribble in the midfield, he rarely/never gets tackled.

So in that respect, Iniesta is a superior Defensive Tactician than Messi.

 

[Elite-BkD]

So I ask again, what part of football is Iniesta clearly better in?

Focus, Awareness, Decision making, Positioning/movement, Passing, Ball control.

And no, I'm not claiming Messi is anything short of excellent in these regards, just that Iniesta is distinctly better.

 

[jiopi]

(Assists + Throughballs + key passes) / turnovers past four seasons

Messi 439 / 260 = 1.69
Iniesta 255 / 172 = 1.48

So as we can see, Messi's has been twice more productive creative passer, and has also better conversion ratio.

 

[jiopi]

So you're saying these stats are correlated, yet you used them as independent stats to create a "dribble vs dispossession ratio" (in addition completely ignoring that the dribble stats are not completely exhaustive of all the dribbling actions performed by a player; which infact can only be measured by actually watching the game).

I'm not actually disputing that Messi is better than Iniesta - but from what I've seen (and I've only missed < 7 games in the past 4 years) Iniesta is harder to dispossess than Messi.

Yes, and btw I've watched every game last 4-5 seasons, and I actually have every game past 4-5 seasons.

 

[ceefoo]

(Assists + Throughballs + key passes) / turnovers past four seasons

Messi 439 / 260 = 1.69
Iniesta 255 / 172 = 1.48

Your Numbers BACK-UP EXACTLY what I stated.

That Iniesta HAS a better Pass Completion than Messi.

Thanks for that!

 

[jiopi]

Your Numbers BACK-UP EXACTLY what I stated.

That Iniesta HAS a better Pass Completion than Messi.

Thanks for that!

Then Xavi surely is a lot better, and the best ever?

 

[ceefoo]

Then Xavi surely is a lot better, and the best ever?

Xavi IS the Best Ever Player of HIS type. This is correct.

 

[footyfan]

Yes, and btw I've watched every game last 4-5 seasons, and I actually have every game past 4-5 seasons.

Then do us all a favour and start making Iniesta gifs, not just Messi. There are so many classic moments and moves.

 

[jiopi]

Then do us all a favour and start making Iniesta gifs, not just Messi. There are so many classic moments and moves.

But even outside of goals, Messi's highlight reel is so much longer than Iniesta's. Messi can make any dribble than Iniesta makes, Messi can create like Iniesta creates, Messi can make any pass that Iniesta makes, but at the same time Iniesta can't

create like this

pass like this

dribble like this

Messi surely is the most underrated player in history of football, outside the goals.

 

[footyfan]

But even outside of goals, Messi's highlight reel is so much longer than Iniesta's. Messi can make any dribble than Iniesta makes, Messi can create like Iniesta creates, Messi can make any pass that Iniesta makes, but at the same time Iniesta can't

create like this
pass like this
dribble like this

Messi surely is the most underrated player in history of football, outside the goals.

Your highlight reels always seem to result in an end-product, but you should realise that for a lot of people there are many more moments from both players. And no, Messi is not underrated. He's not called best ever just because he scores so much, he's called that because he can do all those other things beside score an insane amount of goals.

Edit: Iniesta can definitely "pass like that" (as in your gif).