ceefoo
New member
Couldn't agree more. The only weakness in his game is his shooting. I think he only averages about 1 Goal in 10.
He IS the Assist King however.
He IS the Assist King however.
adil_909
New member
J
jiopi
Guest
Umm, have you heard player named Messi? Who has less space, more markers, is more direct, and yet produces numbers like these?
Season - Messi - Iniesta
09-10 Dribbles 145 - 61
09-10 Dispossessed 89 - 58
09-10 Ratio 1.63 - 1.05
10-11 Dribbles 186 - 84
10-11 Dispossessed 95 - 76
10-11 Ratio 1.98 - 1.11
11-12 Dribbles 176 - 51
11-12 Dispossessed 96 - 40
11-12 Ratio 1.83 - 1.28
12-13 Dribbles 104 - 54
12-13 Dispossessed 74 - 41
12-13 Ratio 1.41 - 1.32
09-13 Dribbles 611 - 250
09-13 Dispossessed 354 - 215
09-13 Ratio 1.73 - 1.16
People should seriously stop hyping up players like this. And lol at the second part of your argument.
footyfan
Calma, calma
Umm, have you heard player named Messi? Who has less space, more markers, is more direct, and yet produces numbers like these?
Season - Messi - Iniesta
09-10 Dribbles 145 - 61
09-10 Dispossessed 89 - 58
09-10 Ratio 1.63 - 1.05
10-11 Dribbles 186 - 84
10-11 Dispossessed 95 - 76
10-11 Ratio 1.98 - 1.11
11-12 Dribbles 176 - 51
11-12 Dispossessed 96 - 40
11-12 Ratio 1.83 - 1.28
12-13 Dribbles 104 - 54
12-13 Dispossessed 74 - 41
12-13 Ratio 1.41 - 1.32
09-13 Dribbles 611 - 250
09-13 Dispossessed 354 - 215
09-13 Ratio 1.73 - 1.16
People should seriously stop hyping up players like this. And lol at the second part of your argument.
Those stats are out of context. What you're implying is that people can only get dispossessed when they try to dribble. So what you're supposedly comparing is successful dribbles vs unsuccessful dribbles. But that's not what I'm talking about. A lot of the times Iniesta keeps the ball in tight positions - it wouldn't be considered as a dribble. How many times do you think Xavi 'dribbles'? Very little. Is he hard to dispossess? No fu**ing doubt is there.
As for the second part of the argument, that's totally hypothetical. If Iniesta was truly close to Messi in terms of decisiveness (which he's not), I don't see why he can't be considered greatest ever. Messi IS being considered that isn't he. And a majority of football fans would agree that Iniesta is more enjoyable to watch than Messi. So he would have the unquantifiable 'aesthetics' going for him as well, just like Zidane etc. who are considered by many (albeit incorrectly in my opinion) as the best midfielder ever.
J
jiopi
Guest
So it's more impressive feat that you don't even make a challenge, but pass the ball to somebody else, rather than dribble a player, and the pass it to someone else? Ain't that the logical thinking.
Messi is as good or better than Iniesta in pretty much every part of football, or can you give me a example which part of football, outside the goals, Iniesta clearly is better? Enjoyability, aesthetics and other nicely worded ways of bullshitting, have nothing to do with quality of the player.
Henry_IB
Banned
Because one shot and one video is sufficient proof for something. Iniesta does lack in the finishing department. Yes, he has scored some screamers and done some incredible goals at extremely important moments but overall he is not a great finisher or shooter.
DonAndres
Wild Man of Borneo
I dunno I like Iniesta the way he is without any crazy scoring stats. He's best served as the magician of the team and everything about him just seems perfect and serene the way it is. All of his goals are even more precious because they don't come at a messi-esque rate.
The thing about Messi is that he represents a phenom of football in every way and going down as the greatest ever puts an unbelievable amount of pressure on his shoulders in every department: scoring, assisting, wonder goals, carrying the team, trophies, etc.
Iniesta however represents the beauty of football in that you play the game like an artist and manipulate the ball in a breathtaking way. He doesn't have the same pressure on his shoulders and has that essence of calmness, serenity, and elegance in the way he gracefully dances away from defenders and picks out a perfect pass.
Overall, Messi's game brings out the testosterone filled passion and excitement of football, while Iniesta's game brings the magic and beauty of football to show that it's not all about the stats or the numbers and that there is an element of artistry to it.
footyfan
Calma, calma
That's not what I'm saying. Whoscored/Opta's criteria for dribble vs not a dribble is something I'm sure neither of us is totally aware of. So your stats provide incomplete evidence for Messi's superiority over Iniesta in keeping the ball in tight situations. All you're proving is that Messi can take on slightly more players on average than Iniesta. Many instances where shielding the ball and manipulating it by moving in the right directions may not be considered as dribbles. However these instances ARE important when I made the qualitative statement "hardest player to dispossess".
Here's the stats for possession lost due to poor control/mistake (i.e turnover):
Season - Messi - Iniesta (Turnovers per game)
09-10 3.0 - 2.4
10-11 1.8 - 1.6
11-12 1.6 - 1.2
12-13 1.4 - 0.7
So that's something where Iniesta is statistically better than Messi. If you'll notice, 09-10 to other seasons there's a huge drop in both players' turnover (infact of all players') which indicates that whoscored's criteria might've changed.
Edit: Here's whoscored's definition for dribble:
Dribble (Successful Dribble)
- Taking on an opponent and successfully making it past them whilst retaining the ball
So they only consider it a dribble if the player makes it past the opponent - something that Messi is more likely to do because of his play-style and advanced position. Iniesta on the other hand is all about little touches and movements that are possibly not quantified by whoscored.
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PearLBLacK
Banned
Agree with FootyFan. Iniesta is by far the most enjoyable individual player for me. He's very similar to Zidane and Kaka in that regard, the way he runs, moves, and maneuvers with the ball reminds me of Zizou. Messi is definitely more effective, no argument there, but Iniesta for me is more enjoyable to watch. The problem is you can't measure aesthetics and "magical" play, you just know it when you see it.
And there's no way to measure this but he is one of the hardest to dispossess. So many times he works his way out of challenges and 2 or 3 players teaming up on him. And yes, so does Messi, but Messi does it with acceleration and quick directional changes. Iniesta does it with minimal space and without dribbling, but with accurate close control and "trickery." How many times he's at the byline and you think there's no way for him to beat the defender except pass back to a midfielder or the LB, and he does that sick Laudrup move, countless times.
There was this instance in the Milan game, I have no idea what minute but will surely be found in a "Iniesta vs Milan" compilation, where I think Messi passed to him near the halfline, and 3 Milan players immediately crowded Iniesta. I was sure they'd dispossess him but he controlled the ball with his left foot, sidestepped and held it with his right, then brought behind his left foot again before being fouled by KPB I think. Can't put it into words really, there's bound to be a clip or a gif anyways.
And there's no way to measure this but he is one of the hardest to dispossess. So many times he works his way out of challenges and 2 or 3 players teaming up on him. And yes, so does Messi, but Messi does it with acceleration and quick directional changes. Iniesta does it with minimal space and without dribbling, but with accurate close control and "trickery." How many times he's at the byline and you think there's no way for him to beat the defender except pass back to a midfielder or the LB, and he does that sick Laudrup move, countless times.
There was this instance in the Milan game, I have no idea what minute but will surely be found in a "Iniesta vs Milan" compilation, where I think Messi passed to him near the halfline, and 3 Milan players immediately crowded Iniesta. I was sure they'd dispossess him but he controlled the ball with his left foot, sidestepped and held it with his right, then brought behind his left foot again before being fouled by KPB I think. Can't put it into words really, there's bound to be a clip or a gif anyways.
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J
jiopi
Guest
Here you can find definitions of OPTA statistics
http://www.optasportspro.com/es/acerca-de/blog-optapro/posts/2012/optapro's-event-definitions.aspx
So if Xavi avoids a tackle in midfield by turning away, is considered a successful dribble.
Even if you add the turnover stats to the dribbles and dispossession stats, Messi is still clearly superior, when you take in consideration other factors, like space, man marking and directness.
So I ask again, what part of football is Iniesta clearly better in?
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PearLBLacK
Banned
No that's not it. I'll have to look for it some other time if there's no complete Iniesta compilation.
ceefoo
New member
I'll answer. Pass completion.
I don't think it'll be necessary to dig out the stats to prove that.
DonAndres
Wild Man of Borneo
J
jiopi
Guest
So making rather unchallenged possession passes in midfield, rather than more direct and creative passes, is better quality wise? Yeah, we saw it against Milan in the 1st leg.
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