Arthur

Rory

Senior Member
In the midfield business, as I said in the past, especially for a possession based player, movement and proper tactics are key.

It's like when you want to make a cake, and you have some great ingredients in the fridge, but others are completely crap. Let's say you have some eggs they are 6 months past their expiration date, and a pack of rancid butter. How the hell do you expect the cake to taste well? You can have the best sugar, if the eggs and the butter are crap, the cake will be crap, because they are too important in the mix. It's almost a guaranteed certainty.

You have people who have no idea how a cake is made, and they say man this can of sugar is crap. Can't you see how crap the cake turned up to be? They see the effect, but don't have the tactical knowledge to look at an effect and draw conclusions about the cause. And you tell these people, dude, it's not the sugar, it's the eggs. They're rotten. And they still don't understand, they will put up some stats and think this explains things. They believe if you change the brand of sugar, the cake will turn up great even if you make it using rotten eggs and rancid butter.

At this point you can only laugh...

Some criticism about Arthur is obviously valid, as he's not been without his fair share of faults so far. Criticism about him being crap offensively is mostly bullshit. All midfielders in this team are bad offensively by this parameter, because we're talking about the slowest, most immobile, old, past it and laziest top team out there.

We are on a quest to find the best sugar and the best flour in the world to pair them with rancid butter and expired eggs, to make a great cake. Good luck to us.

I don't think you read what I said. But to use the cake analogy because why not lmao. Arthur is hardly comparable to "the best ingredients" and as limited as busquets/rakitic/vidal may be they can hardly be compared to rancid butter etc. Especially when "the cake" is success (I think) and with this rancid butter we are top of the league (cake is made and tastes good?).

But also imagine each week you go to a cake making competition with cheap/poor quality ingredients but each week you present a cake at the end that is edible, you score some points for it but nothing amazing. Maybe some weeks you win because the others mess up. It's far better than turning up to the competition with better ingredients only 20% of the time.

I've defended Arthur loads but we should look elsewhere and then he can have the opportunity to force the managers decision or leave for quite possibly a profit. Imagine if we could profit from the sales of coutinho/dembele who have actually had more influence in the team in the same 2 year period even though coutinho has been at bayern all season.
 

serghei

Senior Member
I don't think you read what I said. But to use the cake analogy because why not lmao. Arthur is hardly comparable to "the best ingredients" and as limited as busquets/rakitic/vidal may be they can hardly be compared to rancid butter etc. Especially when "the cake" is success (I think) and with this rancid butter we are top of the league (cake is made and tastes good?).

But also imagine each week you go to a cake making competition with cheap/poor quality ingredients but each week you present a cake at the end that is edible, you score some points for it but nothing amazing. Maybe some weeks you win because the others mess up. It's far better than turning up to the competition with better ingredients only 20% of the time.

I've defended Arthur loads but we should look elsewhere and then he can have the opportunity to force the managers decision or leave for quite possibly a profit. Imagine if we could profit from the sales of coutinho/dembele who have actually had more influence in the team in the same 2 year period even though coutinho has been at bayern all season.

Rancid butter is an analogy for the key things which are missing in this team and which are not related to individual quality. We're talking about team qualities, which appear, develop and are sustained by the overall health level of the group, and the management. We're talking principles which regulate just how competitive a team is. These exist outside of the individual quality of the players. The lacking of these principles - and obviously of quality management who enforce them -, is why the Liverpool incident happened.

The creation of a team hits the hardest point, when you try to pretend as if the team is going to be built by adding the best individual pieces, without looking at the whole picture. It's like trying to plan something without having the bigger picture first, and then putting in the details. If we don't fix the team issues we have, maybe 1 of 5 big money transfers we make could be a success. If we're lucky. Because we're limiting what success should be. We're making success at Barcelona a harder and harder task to achieve. It shouldn't be that hard to play well in a team with so much talent, but it is. Why?

This is now how a team is built. A team is built by first ensuring that team qualities are there. You need to make sure 1) players work hard, 2) players move properly and react to opponent's movements, 3) players play based on what they do in training sessions with no principle of seniority whatsoever, 4) plays are done according to situations on the field, not according to the name on the back of the shirt, 5) players respect tactical roles regarding positions, patterns of movement etc. There are many more. These are obvious principles in any team sport. Make sure these principles are right, and we'll be better at finding out which players are right and which are not. Fail to implement them, and we'll never know for sure if we made a player bad, or the player wasn't very good to begin with. Because it is a mutual relationship. Players bring their individual qualities, club provides the proper platform (proper training programs, proper diet, proper tactics, proper teammates etc.). When both intersect, the great performances start to happen more and more frequently, until they become the norm.

I doubt even one of these very important team-related components are there in our team on consistent basis with each working day. As long as this happens, any rebuilding will be delayed. We'll keep shuffling and reshuffling players, selling and buying until a vital macro change happens. Then the players we bring will have a legitimate shot to make it. Or else, we'll keep demanding perfection from every signing, to see most fail.

At this point it seems only time will make it happen - old guard retiring, meaning legendary players and their close friends who are protected by the board. In this sense, the titles we are still winning despite the problems, are extremely extremely valuable. It is somehow amusing how many problems we have and how successful we still are.
 
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Rory

Senior Member
Rancid butter is an analogy for the key things which are missing in this team and which are not related to individual quality. We're talking about team qualities, which appear, develop and are sustained by the overall health level of the group, and the management. We're talking principles which regulate just how competitive a team is. These exist outside of the individual quality of the players. The lacking of these principles - and obviously of quality management who enforce them -, is why the Liverpool incident happened.

The creation of a team hits the hardest point, when you try to pretend as if the team is going to be built by adding the best individual pieces, without looking at the whole picture. It's like trying to plan something without having the bigger picture first, and then putting in the details. If we don't fix the team issues we have, maybe 1 of 5 big money transfers we make could be a success. If we're lucky. Because we're limiting what success should be. We're making success at Barcelona a harder and harder task to achieve. It shouldn't be that hard to play well in a team with so much talent, but it is. Why?

This is now how a team is built. A team is built by first ensuring that team qualities are there. You need to make sure 1) players work hard, 2) players move properly and react to opponent's movements, 3) players play based on what they do in training sessions with no principle of seniority whatsoever, 4) plays are done according to situations on the field, not according to the name on the back of the shirt, 5) players respect tactical roles regarding positions, patterns of movement etc. There are many more. These are obvious principles in any team sport. Make sure these principles are right, and we'll be better at finding out which players are right and which are not. Fail to implement them, and we'll never know for sure if we made a player bad, or the players wasn't very good to begin with.

I doubt even one of these very important team-related components are there in our team on consistent basis with each working day. As long as this happens, any rebuilding will be delayed. We'll keep shuffling and reshuffling players, selling and buying until a vital macro change happens. Then the players we bring will have a legitimate shot to make it. Or else, we'll keep demanding perfection from every signing, to see most other failings.

At this point it seems only time will make it happen. In this sense, the titles we are still winning despite the problems, are extremely valuable. It is somehow amusing how many problems we have and how successful we are.

I get what you're saying and agree teams need those things. Just not sure why you think Arthur has shown he can consistently contribute to the team's success in the ways you have stated.

1) Players work hard.
It's well known he hasn't been at the required fitness levels (even without the injuries).

2) Players react to opponents movements.
I'd say he's good at this but nothing special. Many midfielders are capable of this.

3) Players play based on training sessions.
maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. Not sure.

4) Plays are done according to situations on the field and not names on the shirt.
Every single player who has ever played with Messi has looked for him to do something with the ball and until Messi leaves this will hardly ever change. But again Arthur hardly bucks the trend here.

5) Players respect tactical roles, patterns of movement.
He probably does do this quite well but again not spectacularly well.

If he can stay consistently fit next year then he's a player worth having, if not we would be absolutely mad to keep him if a €40m-€50m offer comes in.
 

serghei

Senior Member
I get what you're saying and agree teams need those things. Just not sure why you think Arthur has shown he can consistently contribute to the team's success in the ways you have stated.

1) Players work hard.
It's well known he hasn't been at the required fitness levels (even without the injuries).

2) Players react to opponents movements.
I'd say he's good at this but nothing special. Many midfielders are capable of this.

3) Players play based on training sessions.
maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. Not sure.

4) Plays are done according to situations on the field and not names on the shirt.
Every single player who has ever played with Messi has looked for him to do something with the ball and until Messi leaves this will hardly ever change. But again Arthur hardly bucks the trend here.

5) Players respect tactical roles, patterns of movement.
He probably does do this quite well but again not spectacularly well.

If he can stay consistently fit next year then he's a player worth having, if not we would be absolutely mad to keep him if a €40m-€50m offer comes in.

Arthur has sparkles of brilliance. For example, like when he came on vs Bilbao in the Copa recently and made the game's 2 best passes, which let to the only 2, 1 vs 1s chances of the game. Only a very talented player can do that. Or like when he dominated Madrid at his first clasico, and the only way to take the ball from him was to foul him. Or when he came on vs Osasuna and the whole game changed.

But at the moment, these things come only when he is doing extraordinary things. They don't come because of our system, or our tactics, or our movement. They come despite these things. This is what said team values seek to provide. They provide the framework for the player to do these things consistently, without making it seem neither genius, nor particularly risky.

If you don't have proper movement, every progressive pass is a serious risk. And Arthur is a possession player, once he loses the ball it is unlikely he will get it back, with some tackle. With these players, if you have very poor movement & intensity, they will be safety-pass masters. If you have great movement, they will be good-pass masters. He will pull off many many good passes allowing our buildup to take shape and get the ball moving in good positions. He will, from time to time, do some brilliant passes as well (like he's done in some games), but they are not his main role. Their role and value is consistently making good passes and putting decisive players in good positions. For this you need movement, because the area where he plays is crowded with bodies everywhere. To pass in crowded spaces, you need movement and intensity. Sometimes you open space individually, through a dribble, a feint, or something like that, but those are exceptions, something extra. And even in these cases, this is meant to buy you more time, until teammate offer you options for continuation. If said teammates are sleeping on their feet and don't move, it's all for nothing.

About what you wrote.

1) Team is notorious for their bad shape. We are consistently the worse team physically by every parameter almost. So, we already know we are crap physically and we have crap stamina. It's hard not to when there are multiple stories from many sources about our... let's say... very light training and match preparation. Yet, you consider this as something individually related to Arthur. How many games where Arthur didn't even play under Setien where we started intensely, and died off after 40 mins allowing our opponents to pressure us after min 60 simply because we were visibly gassed?

My guess is Arthur looks more tired, than other players. But I see no evidence his stamina is abnormally low in comparison with other players from Barca or even Europe. In CL, where we have data for these things, Arthur's kms per game are well within normal rates. I think he was close to Verratti's numbers.

2) Yea, all players are better at some things and worse at others. It simply means Arthur needs to be very good on the ball to compensate for him being average defensively. We're yet to see how good on the ball he can be under a good system. I think his potential in this area is very high, if we sort the shit out with our team (and I don't mean transfers, but many more).

3) Yes, we don't know. That's my point. We don't know how the bad stuff happening at the team may affect some players.

4) That is not true. Successful Barca team didn't pass the ball to Messi when better teammates were placed.

5) We have very few patterns. When your movement is crap, and you play a possession based model, it means the safety passes going up. Poor movement generate many turnovers for direct styles, and unusually high number of safe-passes for possession based systems. This is not individually tied to one player. Arthur has been missing a good while, and never did our game improved. When Arthur is missing, the team doesn't create more on average.
 
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Rory

Senior Member
Arthur has sparkles of brilliance. For example, like when he came on vs Bilbao in the Copa recently and made the game's 2 best passes, which let to the only 2, 1 vs 1s chances of the game. Only a very talented player can do that. Or like when he dominated Madrid at his first clasico, and the only way to take the ball from him was to foul him. Or when he came on vs Osasuna and the whole game changed.

But at the moment, these things come only when he is doing extraordinary things. They don't come because of our system, or our tactics, or our movement. They come despite these things. This is what said team values seek to provide. They provide the framework for the player to do these things consistently, without making it seem neither genius, nor particularly risky.

If you don't have proper movement, every progressive pass is a serious risk. And Arthur is a possession player, once he loses the ball it is unlikely he will get it back, with some tackle. With these players, if you have very poor movement & intensity, they will be safety-pass masters. If you have great movement, they will be good-pass masters. He will pull off many many good passes allowing our buildup to take shape and get the ball moving in good positions. He will, from time to time, do some brilliant passes as well (like he's done in some games), but they are not his main role. Their role and value is consistently making good passes and putting decisive players in good positions. For this you need movement, because the area where he plays is crowded with bodies everywhere. To pass in crowded spaces, you need movement and intensity. Sometimes you open space individually, through a dribble, a feint, or something like that, but those are exceptions, something extra. And even in these cases, this is meant to buy you more time, until teammate offer you options for continuation. If said teammates are sleeping on their feet and don't move, it's all for nothing.

About what you wrote.

1) Team is notorious for their bad shape. We are consistently the worse team physically by every parameter almost. So, we already know we are crap physically and we have crap stamina. It's hard not to when there are multiple stories from many sources about our... let's say... very light training and match preparation. Yet, you consider this as something individually related to Arthur. How many games where Arthur didn't even play under Setien where we started intensely, and died off after 40 mins allowing our opponents to pressure us after min 60 simply because we were visibly gassed?

My guess is Arthur looks more tired, than other players. But I see no evidence his stamina is abnormally low in comparison with other players from Barca or even Europe. In CL, where we have data for these things, Arthur's kms per game are well within normal rates. I think he was close to Verratti's numbers.

2) Yea, all players are better at some things and worse at others. It simply means Arthur needs to be very good on the ball to compensate for him being average defensively. We're yet to see how good on the ball he can be under a good system. I think his potential in this area is very high, if we sort the shit out with our team (and I don't mean transfers, but many more).

3) Yes, we don't know. That's my point. We don't know how the bad stuff happening at the team may affect some players.

4) That is not true. Successful Barca team didn't pass the ball to Messi when better teammates were placed.

5) We have very few patterns. When your movement is crap, and you play a possession based model, it means the safety passes going up. Poor movement generate many turnovers for direct styles, and unusually high number of safe-passes for possession based systems. This is not individually tied to one player. Arthur has been missing a good while, and never did our game improved. When Arthur is missing, the team doesn't create more on average.

The point is...he is either unavailable/injured/has fitness issues/drop in form for more than half the season.

You?re essentially saying if absolutely everything goes right; excellent manager, hungry focused teammates with appropriate skills, suddenly we play excellent football etc then Arthur will be a great bonus. Of course this is the case, when everything is right in a club average players look great. Look at Klopps liverpool, the number of average players that look great is staggering.

I think Arthur is a great player, but he simply is not available/fit enough most of the time SO FAR. If he continues this sort of thing next season he has to go, don?t you agree? 3 years of inconsistent football is surely too much? I would love him to succeed, he?s the 2nd player I look for on the team sheet after Messi. Unfortunately I?m often disappointed to find he?s not available.
 

MTL_Barca

Well-known member
Barca has like two capable midfielders under the age of 30, selling one of them to start the rebuilding process and potentially even bringing in another 30 year old in return seems like an awesome idea.
 

Rory

Senior Member
Barca has like two capable midfielders under the age of 30, selling one of them to start the rebuilding process and potentially even bringing in another 30 year old in return seems like an awesome idea.

Selling him only on the condition he is very inconsistent for the 3rd year in a row makes perfect sense. Thiago?s name is thrown in there merely because he?s a class midfielder who could be a consistent starter for at least 2 years, not a long term plan but maybe a necessary one should he be available cheaply. Having him and Arthur battle it out for the same role might even bring the best out of Arthur, who knows? More importantly if Arthur is to remain inconsistent we have to get someone in who isn?t. Not sure how else we can expect to compete year in year out.
 

Messigician

Senior Member
Selling him only on the condition he is very inconsistent for the 3rd year in a row makes perfect sense. Thiago?s name is thrown in there merely because he?s a class midfielder who could be a consistent starter for at least 2 years, not a long term plan but maybe a necessary one should he be available cheaply. Having him and Arthur battle it out for the same role might even bring the best out of Arthur, who knows? More importantly if Arthur is to remain inconsistent we have to get someone in who isn?t. Not sure how else we can expect to compete year in year out.

Thiago jsut signed a contract extension. Forget about that bum
 

LABarcaFan

New member
Juventus are pushing for Arthur - Pjanic swap, but the Brazilian does not want to leave the club. In that case, A.Vidal can be the one to swap. Would you do that?
 

serghei

Senior Member
Vidal - Pjanic is pretty much a fair swap. But I still wouldn't do it. Arthur - Pjanic is a robbery for Juve.
 

xXKonan

Senior Member
Lol, would Juve even accept either Vidal or Rakitic for Pjanic?

They clearly want Arthur the most since he's much younger and has room to grow but Arthur already said he wasn't leaving and wants to stay.
 

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