Arthur

vuji_31

Senior Member
I think we all seen difference when Messi have the ball, and when other players have the ball...
So many times they just need (I don't know if it is lack of confidence) or something like that, they just pass the ball to Messi...
Messi is bigger then the team, it was not same situation when big dogs like Neymar,Xavi and Iniesta where in the team where the passing to same person over and over was not case.

Also nobody can tell me that Messi gives as much passes to Griezmann as he can...I saw it by my eyes and nobody can deny it for me.
 

LABarcaFan

New member
To who should he pass through passes?

To Messi who plays in mifield, slow Suarez or another midfilder Griezmann?

We don't have players that use space

That is the whole story here. We don't have players that use space and our system is not allowing the spacing.
But Arthur is slow and lacks fitness to be either defensive or Box2Box midfielder.
 

LABarcaFan

New member
I think we all seen difference when Messi have the ball, and when other players have the ball...
So many times they just need (I don't know if it is lack of confidence) or something like that, they just pass the ball to Messi...
Messi is bigger then the team, it was not same situation when big dogs like Neymar,Xavi and Iniesta where in the team where the passing to same person over and over was not case.

Also nobody can tell me that Messi gives as much passes to Griezmann as he can...I saw it by my eyes and nobody can deny it for me.

The only person Messi trust and pass is his buddy Suarez. I remember one game when he was playing with Griez and Fati upfront and he's been looking more often to the kid than the Frenchman.
After Xavi and Iniesta quit playing for Barca, our tactic was - just pass the ball to Messi, no matter where are you on the field. That was the main reason for our failures in the CL in the last years. And now, when Messi aged, it is really easy for the opponents to take the ball away from him.

I am a fan but I'm pretty sure more than half of Ney's passes ended up to Messi when he playing here

That is true. Like 70 % of Neymar's passes were addressed for Messi and the other for Suarez. Also Ney was creating at least 3-4 free kicks per game for his buddy, even though he is good at them himself.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
To who should he pass through passes?

To Messi who plays in mifield, slow Suarez or another midfilder Griezmann?

We don't have players that use space

He played exactly the same for Gremio and Brasilian NT.

Ok, our team sucks in terms of attacking movement but our players still have flaws which are almost impossible to fix, like:
Dembele's decisions and IQ
Semedo and his skills in the attacking third
Arthur and his creative skills in the attacking third
Suarez and his horrible first touch
Rakitic against press

Guys, you can't blame everything on a poor movement or bad coaches.
Majority of our players are just meh.
 

Andresito

Senior Member
Staff member
Arthur has a goal or assist every 170 min this season.
Modric 190 minutes.
Kroos 193 minutes.

Arthur has fewer minutes so his stats can be a bit inflated. But still.
 

serghei

Senior Member
Arthur has a goal or assist every 170 min this season.
Modric 190 minutes.
Kroos 193 minutes.

Arthur has fewer minutes so his stats can be a bit inflated. But still.

Yea, many seem to not care his offensive numbers weren't looking that bad before he started to pick up injuries.

There's visible improvement compared to last season.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
Arthur has a goal or assist every 170 min this season.
Modric 190 minutes.
Kroos 193 minutes.

Arthur has fewer minutes so his stats can be a bit inflated. But still.

Some stats for BBz to wonder.

Why don't you take a larger picture and remove emotions?
Ok, we can't totally remove emotions and it is quite obvious that I don't like Arthur.
And that you guys love him.

But again, regardless of that, look at patterns and a larger picture:
Arthur's whole career:
6620 minutes, 5 goals, 7 assists
= 1,324 minutes needed for 1 goal (or 14,7 full matches x 90 minutes)
= 945,7 minutes needed for 1 assist (or 10,5 full matches x 90 minutes)

So, you have 2 options when you look at his whole career:
1. he is very poor to average in the attacking third in general, and his numbers from a short period this season were an anomaly or a short good streak
2. or: he is improving and his numbers from this season are a sign of how he will play in the future

But then, if you also dig deeper into his patterns and numbers, as I have wrote in the past:
1. when he came to Barca, he played at 120% motivation and he was eager to prove himself
He played well in that period.
2. once when he has earned his place as a starter, he started to play as a dogshit in the 2nd part of the last season.
He dropped to a 5th place in the pecking order behind Busi, Raki, Vidal and even Alena.
3. then he got mad at Valverde and at the start of this season (September, after 2 Months of rest), he again played at 120% because he wanted to prove that he deserves a starting place.
And then he had a streak of 6 and a half good matches for Barca with these ratings:
7,97 Osasuna
7,51 Valencia
7,48 Dortmund
7,94 Villareal
7,62 Getafe
7,32 Inter
7,55 Sevilla
So, his rating was almost at around 7,50 in those 7 matches.
In 535 minutes he scored 2 goals and had 4 assists.
So, in his whole career he had 2 assists before that (according to Whoscored), and then he had 4 assists in 7 matches.
What is more likely?
That he turned into an offensive beast or had a lucky-streak with a high momentum?

So, in these 7 matches, he never had a rating lower than 7,30.
And then, in the next 13 matches for Barca this season, he had only 1 match with a rating over 7, lol.
Also, in the last 788 minutes for Barca, he had 0 assists.

So, what now?
My point is: taking only those 7 awesome matches and saying how this is THE REAL ARTHUR is the same as looking at Rakitic at a World cup and saying that he is one the best midfielders in the world = because he played awesome there, scored crucial penalty kicks, he was one of top 5 runners in every match and reached a world cup final.
But in reality, is Raki really that good in this moment?
No.
Rakitic is a guy who will play a world class match here and there and in the next match he will lose 5 balls in a row.

The same is with Arthur.
He will usually have 10-20 matches without assists and then he will have 4 matches with 4 assists.

Even Dembele had crazy numbers in the last season.
Remember how people used to post that Dembouz has won us 18 points (or whatever number it was) and he had the highest percentage of goals/assists per minute behind Messi.
But is Dembele really that good or he had a lucky streak and otherwise is mostly a horrible player?

So, Arthur already had 2 seasons with the same pattern:
1. plays with 120% when he wants to prove himself, when he is well rested and while he has stamina
2. then turns into a shit once when he earns his place and when he gets tired after a few matches in a row
3. do I need to add 100s of injuries in the 2nd part of the season?

So, we can love or hate some if his skills, but when you look at the larger picture, these are objective trends and patterns about his career so far.

So, I can't agree with you about those numbers from those 6 and a half matches from September to November.
 
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mc_lovin

Senior Member
Thats an incredibly disingenuous way to look at things.

(I would write more than oneliners, but I dont have the breath to argue anymore)
 

serghei

Senior Member
BBZ, why is it so hard to admit that Arthur has been improving, and while he's not amazing or great offensively, he's not crap either? And by offensively I mean your interpretation of what "offensiveness" is, which is skewed towards stats and direct contributions.

I agree he needs to be more professional and keep himself fit for a full season, which he hasn't done in either seasons. Also agree that he'll never be a high scoring midfielder or a great shooter. This doesn't mean though that he can't be offensively very good by doing other things, like finding teammates in good positions, playing creative passes from deeper, dribbling opponents, drawing opponents on him, evading pressure and releasing in space and so on.

You sometimes act as if the ball appears out of nowhere around the box. If you don't make the assist or score the goal, offensively, in your opinion, you almost don't exist at all. How about the first link of a chain of 4-5 consecutive passes that lead to a goal. You don't judge that as offensive contribution at all, just because it doesn't register as a valuable stat?
 
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Andresito

Senior Member
Staff member
+1 to the two posts above.

Arthur is the least of our problems at the moment. He's improved massively in areas we wanted him to improve from first season.
Now he has a coach that actually wants to play to his strengths. Only disappointment I have with him is his fitness. But I think he's smart and talented enough to grow into a top 10 midfielder in the world.

Even BBZ mentions Arthur can be an offensive beast. How about we try and help Arthur keep this level consistently? We can afford to give him more time, he's far from a bad player when he's at his worst.
 

serghei

Senior Member
Yea, but we have a really bad offensive system.

- low movement
- low intensity
- poor work ethic
- positional problems because we have too may veterans with too much freedom
- overuse of defensive possession, because we are crap in transition (to be good in transition you have to be fit, not filled with old players, fast, and willing to work hard, we are neither of these things)

We partially compensate this by having many talented veterans. Which is a luxury nobody but Madrid (and only partially) has in Spain.

So, what we're basically asking from our players, is to be fucking amazing. The team components are missing. This is the galactico model we are experiencing. A team with an extremely poor system, very weak on team cohesion, but with superstars.
 

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