Barça's Transfers and Rumors

[NeyMesSis]

Fair play I just see it differently and think he does have the ability to replace Xavi and be the best in the world in that role or it may even be that he stays further back and Samper replaces Xavi in time but just don't feel Gundogan is needed.

Samper in just over a years time will be 20 and starting to push for first team minutes, minutes he wont get if Gundogan is brought in.

i think he would get many minutes with busquets/samper/Gündogan for 2 spots...

 

[JamDav1982]

i think he would get many minutes with busquets/samper/Gündogan for 2 spots...

You think they are just going to bin Xavi? They wont and if Gundogan is signed it will mean less minutes for Samper who will turn 20 next season and be pushing the first team squad.

 

[Sumlit]

You think they are just going to bin Xavi? They wont and if Gundogan is signed it will mean less minutes for Samper who will turn 20 next season and be pushing the first team squad.

By the time Samper is promoted and is ready to be a full feature of the team, Xavi would be about ready to retire, and you'd still be in the same situation of needing depth for the position. Samper has a 2-3 year frame to go from Barca B to full feature in the first team, by that time, Xavi would already be 36 years old. That 2-3 year gap has to be filled with a world class deep lying midfielder if the team intends to keep their status as a world's best.

After that, if Samper has grown enough and has garnered enough merit to overtake someone like Gundogan, then a similar passing of the torch can happen as it did with Yaya and Busquets.

You cannot forget about the now, just because you have some potential for tomorrow. You get what you need now, and if tomorrows potential materializes, there are worst things than having more than 1 great player for a positions, and you can always sell the lesser.

 

[NeyMesSis]

By the time Samper is promoted and is ready to be a full feature of the team, Xavi would be about ready to retire, and you'd still be in the same situation of needing depth for the position. Samper has a 2-3 year frame to go from Barca B to full feature in the first team, by that time, Xavi would already be 36 years old. That 2-3 year gap has to be filled with a world class deep lying midfielder if the team intends to keep their status as a world's best.

After that, if Samper has grown enough and has garnered enough merit to overtake someone like Gundogan, then a similar passing of the torch can happen as it did with Yaya and Busquets.

You cannot forget about the now, just because you have some potential for tomorrow. You get what you need now, and if tomorrows potential materializes, there are worst things than having more than 1 great player for a positions, and you can always sell the lesser.

exactly :beer2:

 

[JamDav1982]

By the time Samper is promoted and is ready to be a full feature of the team, Xavi would be about ready to retire, and you'd still be in the same situation of needing depth for the position. Samper has a 2-3 year frame to go from Barca B to full feature in the first team, by that time, Xavi would already be 36 years old. That 2-3 year gap has to be filled with a world class deep lying midfielder if the team intends to keep their status as a world's best.

After that, if Samper has grown enough and has garnered enough merit to overtake someone like Gundogan, then a similar passing of the torch can happen as it did with Yaya and Busquets.

You cannot forget about the now, just because you have some potential for tomorrow. You get what you need now, and if tomorrows potential materializes, there are worst things than having more than 1 great player for a positions, and you can always sell the lesser.

You are describing easing Samper in there in almost exactly the same way that the club treated Thiago yet he was described as being mismanaged I thought?

Xavi will probably go on for another couple of seasons after this and Gundogan would not come here and start ahead of him. If Gundogan is the back up to Xavi then how do you expect Samper to get minutes?

He is getting to the age Thiago was introduced to the first team and he would still have two players ahead of him in the pecking order.

 

[Sumlit]

You are describing easing Samper in there in almost exactly the same way that the club treated Thiago yet he was described as being mismanaged I thought?

Xavi will probably go on for another couple of seasons after this and Gundogan would not come here and start ahead of him. If Gundogan is the back up to Xavi then how do you expect Samper to get minutes?

He is getting to the age Thiago was introduced to the first team and he would still have two players ahead of him in the pecking order.

Thiago was mismanaged because he was promoted and he did not see a clear ascending trend in his role for the team. In fact, he had an ascending trend under Guardiola, that halted and went backwards under Tito.

Xavi does probably have a couple of seasons left, but if someone like Gundogan comes next summer, he would certainly assume the starting role over Xavi, who would still feature heavily in the team, but at a reduced role more fitting for his current physical limitations.

So supposing you buy Gundogan next summer in this scenario, and keep Samper another year in Barca B until he is 20. Gundogan could start, play over 50 games, while Xavi could still be featured to a lesser extend and play around 40.
Then, in the 2015-2016 season, you could promote Samper, reduce Xavi's role further as he would be entering 36 years of age, and you could see a split of Gundogan still featuring over 50 games as your starter, but now Xavi and Samper would share the 40.
By the 2016-2017 season, Xavi is close to 37 and possibly retiring, Gundogan is still your starter for the 3rd year, but now Samper is his full backup (if he merits it) and is only 22-23 years old still, featuring in over 40 games.

That's an ascending trend for Samper as he matures, and you can then evaluate if he merits being pushed ahead of Gundogan for an undisputed starter.

You also take care of the present needs of the team, without harming its future.

 

[JamDav1982]

Thiago was mismanaged because he was promoted and he did not see a clear ascending trend in his role for the team. In fact, he had an ascending trend under Guardiola, that halted and went backwards under Tito.

Xavi does probably have a couple of seasons left, but if someone like Gundogan comes next summer, he would certainly assume the starting role over Xavi, who would still feature heavily in the team, but at a reduced role more fitting for his current physical limitations.

So supposing you buy Gundogan next summer in this scenario, and keep Samper another year in Barca B until he is 20. Gundogan could start, play over 50 games, while Xavi could still be featured to a lesser extend and play around 40.
Then, in the 2015-2016 season, you could promote Samper, reduce Xavi's role further as he would be entering 36 years of age, and you could see a split of Gundogan still featuring over 50 games as your starter, but now Xavi and Samper would share the 40.
By the 2016-2017 season, Xavi is close to 37 and possibly retiring, Gundogan is still your starter for the 3rd year, but now Samper is his full backup (if he merits it) and is only 22-23 years old still, featuring in over 40 games.

That's an ascending trend for Samper as he matures, and you can then evaluate if he merits being pushed ahead of Gundogan for an undisputed starter.

You also take care of the present needs of the team, without harming its future.

Ascending trend?

The only reason he played more under Guardiola is that Guardiola played a 3-4-3 formation which in the end did not work. When it went back to three in the middle he was rightly the fourth choice at the club. If anything stalled him at Barca it was the decision to bring in Cesc in the first place.

How do you think that Gundogan and Xavi could play 90 games between them?

The club wont pick Gundogan next season with Xavi to back him up, it wont happen.

For me there are more pressing issues at the moment than to buy a player for a position that is well covered and an almost 19 year old in the wings and another older player coming to the end.

Signing Gundogan would hinder the development of Samper for me. He needs to start getting introduced to first team football next season.

 

[KingMessi]

Thiago was mismanaged because he was promoted and he did not see a clear ascending trend in his role for the team. In fact, he had an ascending trend under Guardiola, that halted and went backwards under Tito.

Xavi does probably have a couple of seasons left, but if someone like Gundogan comes next summer, he would certainly assume the starting role over Xavi, who would still feature heavily in the team, but at a reduced role more fitting for his current physical limitations.

So supposing you buy Gundogan next summer in this scenario, and keep Samper another year in Barca B until he is 20. Gundogan could start, play over 50 games, while Xavi could still be featured to a lesser extend and play around 40.
Then, in the 2015-2016 season, you could promote Samper, reduce Xavi's role further as he would be entering 36 years of age, and you could see a split of Gundogan still featuring over 50 games as your starter, but now Xavi and Samper would share the 40.
By the 2016-2017 season, Xavi is close to 37 and possibly retiring, Gundogan is still your starter for the 3rd year, but now Samper is his full backup (if he merits it) and is only 22-23 years old still, featuring in over 40 games.

That's an ascending trend for Samper as he matures, and you can then evaluate if he merits being pushed ahead of Gundogan for an undisputed starter.

You also take care of the present needs of the team, without harming its future.

I have a question, can Gundogan play solitary defensive midfielder like Busquets? If he can, then we can ditch Song and have him as first backup for both Busi and Xavi.

 

[Luftstalag14]

I have a question, can Gundogan play solitary defensive midfielder like Busquets? If he can, then we can ditch Song and have him as first backup for both Busi and Xavi.

I'd say no, they have Sven Bender for that role.

 

[KingMessi]

I'd say no, they have Sven Bender for that role.

Whether or not he can play as both a lone dm and a cm when asked is what will make or break this transfer in my opinion.

 

[Sumlit]

Ascending trend?

The only reason he played more under Guardiola is that Guardiola played a 3-4-3 formation which in the end did not work. When it went back to three in the middle he was rightly the fourth choice at the club. If anything stalled him at Barca it was the decision to bring in Cesc in the first place.

How do you think that Gundogan and Xavi could play 90 games between them?

The club wont pick Gundogan next season with Xavi to back him up, it wont happen.

For me there are more pressing issues at the moment than to buy a player for a position that is well covered and an almost 19 year old in the wings and another older player coming to the end.

Signing Gundogan would hinder the development of Samper for me. He needs to start getting introduced to first team football next season.

For whatever reason you choose. Bottom line Thiago saw his role rise, then be reduced. With the prospect of another year under Tito, under what he thought was a less involved role, he chose to leave.

When I write game numbers, I obviously count games where they don't play 90 minutes. Plenty of those games both players will play as one will be substituted for the other. There's also the odd game where both players could play at the same time.


What the club will do doesn't necessarily coincide with what they should do, or what we think they should. For instance they should have bought a CB a long time ago, and didn't. At this point in his career, Xavi would be more efficient for the team, not to mention potentially extending his playing career, if the team had a younger player with similar skills to spare him the harshest punishments of the entire season. The heaviest part of the season is not yet here, and Xavi is already showing some signs of wear and tear.
Treating Xavi as a holy cow that cannot ever be replaced or reduced to a secondary role is exactly how you screw a promising potential replacement in Thiago, and exactly how you screw up the team and get bounced out of top competitions.

Just because there are other important needs does not mean you can neglect other areas and allowed them in turn to rise into future problematic areas. The scenario I posed, while not the only one and not the only way by any stretch of the imagination, not only allows for a smoother transition from the now to the future, but also breaches the gap between the 33 year old and the 18. It would be less than ideal IMO to promote Samper next season and automatically give him the responsibility of being the main fulcrum of this team as Xavi used to be. He is too young.

Signing a player like Gundogan will not in the slightest hinder the development of Samper.

 

[JamDav1982]

For whatever reason you choose. Bottom line Thiago saw his role rise, then be reduced. With the prospect of another year under Tito, under what he thought was a less involved role, he chose to leave.

When I write game numbers, I obviously count games where they don't play 90 minutes. Plenty of those games both players will play as one will be substituted for the other. There's also the odd game where both players could play at the same time.


What the club will do doesn't necessarily coincide with what they should do, or what we think they should. For instance they should have bought a CB a long time ago, and didn't. At this point in his career, Xavi would be more efficient for the team, not to mention potentially extending his playing career, if the team had a younger player with similar skills to spare him the harshest punishments of the entire season. The heaviest part of the season is not yet here, and Xavi is already showing some signs of wear and tear.
Treating Xavi as a holy cow that cannot ever be replaced or reduced to a secondary role is exactly how you screw a promising potential replacement in Thiago, and exactly how you screw up the team and get bounced out of top competitions.

Just because there are other important needs does not mean you can neglect other areas and allowed them in turn to rise into future problematic areas. The scenario I posed, while not the only one and not the only way by any stretch of the imagination, not only allows for a smoother transition from the now to the future, but also breaches the gap between the 33 year old and the 18. It would be less than ideal IMO to promote Samper next season and automatically give him the responsibility of being the main fulcrum of this team as Xavi used to be. He is too young.

Signing a player like Gundogan will not in the slightest hinder the development of Samper.

Thiago had less prospects as he was the fourth choice CM at the club and rightfully so. Tito was correct in that.

He actually played the same number of league games under Tito as he did under Pep despite missing a chunk of the season with an injury (2 months).

If Pep was here I don't think he would even contemplate taking in Gundogan.

Was there not a similar situation a couple of seasons ago when Ozil had more or less agreed to sign for Barca and the decision was left to Pep and he turned it down on the back of not wanting it to hinder a 19 year old Thiago?

Of course signing Gundogan would stand in the way of Samper. He would be lucky to get anywhere near the number of minutes that Thiago did by the age of 22 and look what happened there.

Like Gundogan as a player but he is not needed in my opinion.

 

[KingMessi]

With Mascherano and Song likely to leave next season, who will we get to be Busi's backup? Samper, imo, is still too young.

 

[JamDav1982]

With Mascherano and Song likely to leave next season, who will we get to be Busi's backup? Samper, imo, is still too young.

Nineteen and a half is not that young and Cesc, Iniesta and Xavi were all playing first team football before that.

Having said that I doubt they would sell Song without replacing him but hopefully Samper is seeing first team action at times next season.

 

[KingMessi]

Nineteen and a half is not that young and Cesc, Iniesta and Xavi were all playing first team football before that.

Having said that I doubt they would sell Song without replacing him but hopefully Samper is seeing first team action at times next season.

Huh, I had no idea that Samper turned 19 next month.

Yeah, I suppose getting Gundogan would inhibit his progress, but on the other hand, throwing him in too early could hurt him as well.

Let's try to nab Oli Torres from Atletico then