Barça's Transfers and Rumors

[Sumlit]

Thiago had less prospects as he was the fourth choice CM at the club and rightfully so. Tito was correct in that.

He actually played the same number of league games under Tito as he did under Pep despite missing a chunk of the season with an injury (2 months).

If Pep was here I don't think he would even contemplate taking in Gundogan.

Was there not a similar situation a couple of seasons ago when Ozil had more or less agreed to sign for Barca and the decision was left to Pep and he turned it down on the back of not wanting it to hinder a 19 year old Thiago?

Of course signing Gundogan would stand in the way of Samper. He would be lucky to get anywhere near the number of minutes that Thiago did by the age of 22 and look what happened there.

Like Gundogan as a player but he is not needed in my opinion.

Thiago cannot be looked as the 4th choice CM. Thiago was the 2nd choice CM behind Xavi, because neither Cesc nor Iniesta are CM. That Tito chose to play Cesc over Thiago as a CM was part of the problem. His overall games played dipped well below the previous years, and even though you make a good observation that he was injured for a while, the bottom line was he saw his role in the team significantly reduced. He saw his role as you see it, as 4th choice midfielder, because that was what Tito reduced it to.

If Pep was here, Thiago would also be here, and there would be no need to get any other player for that position. The Ozil situation you speak of does not relate to this, simply because the gap between Xavi and Thiago is much more manageable than the gap between Xavi and Samper.

I already explained why IMO Gundogan would not hinder Sampers replacement. Samper is easily at least 3-5 years removed from being a world class midfielder, if he does indeed reach that expected potential. Meanwhile, Xavi is nowhere near capable of giving you 3-5 season in top from all throughout the year, and even his top form now has declined from 3 years ago. You need a player to breach the gap.
If you allow Samper another season in Barca B to further develop, and then start bringing him along slowly, you can definitely phase out Xavi with Samper, while having a current world class midfielder play the heavy minutes for your team so you keep the competitive edge above the rest.
Without this, the gap years will see a much declined Xavi along with a much too raw Samper, completely hindering and handicapping your team.

 

[JamDav1982]

Thiago cannot be looked as the 4th choice CM. Thiago was the 2nd choice CM behind Xavi, because neither Cesc nor Iniesta are CM. That Tito chose to play Cesc over Thiago as a CM was part of the problem. His overall games played dipped well below the previous years, and even though you make a good observation that he was injured for a while, the bottom line was he saw his role in the team significantly reduced. He saw his role as you see it, as 4th choice midfielder, because that was what Tito reduced it to.

If Pep was here, Thiago would also be here, and there would be no need to get any other player for that position. The Ozil situation you speak of does not relate to this, simply because the gap between Xavi and Thiago is much more manageable than the gap between Xavi and Samper.

I already explained why IMO Gundogan would not hinder Sampers replacement. Samper is easily at least 3-5 years removed from being a world class midfielder, if he does indeed reach that expected potential. Meanwhile, Xavi is nowhere near capable of giving you 3-5 season in top from all throughout the year, and even his top form now has declined from 3 years ago. You need a player to breach the gap.
If you allow Samper another season in Barca B to further develop, and then start bringing him along slowly, you can definitely phase out Xavi with Samper, while having a current world class midfielder play the heavy minutes for your team so you keep the competitive edge above the rest.
Without this, the gap years will see a much declined Xavi along with a much too raw Samper, completely hindering and handicapping your team.

Samper will be closer to 20 than 19 by the time next season starts.

If players so highly rated are getting to that age and big money signings are coming in ahead of them then I cant blame the younger players for looking to leave.

In your scenario there is no chance that by 22 Samper will have the minutes that Thiago did at that age, not even close.

It is not all about having the strongest squad immediately it is about giving the young players a chance to develop as that is what Barcelona is all about. Telling players who are amongst the best young players in the world that they will be at best 3rd choice in their position until the age of 22 wont keep them there.

 

[Sumlit]

Samper will be closer to 20 than 19 by the time next season starts.

If players so highly rated are getting to that age and big money signings are coming in ahead of them then I cant blame the younger players for looking to leave.

In your scenario there is no chance that by 22 Samper will have the minutes that Thiago did at that age, not even close.

It is not all about having the strongest squad immediately it is about giving the young players a chance to develop as that is what Barcelona is all about. Telling players who are amongst the best young players in the world that they will be at best 3rd choice in their position until the age of 22 wont keep them there.

Samper will be 19 years old by the time next season starts, even if he does have a January birthday. Just 19 years old and you'd be asking him to be first depth behind an ever declining Xavi who will need more and more rest and support as the times passes. Not to mention the potential for injury completely thrusting a youngster into the fire pit.

My scenario would most definitely allow for an increase in minutes by that age, even allowing next season to still remain at Barca B.
19-20 Barca B 2014-2015 season, Barca get world class starter (Gundogan), Xavi depth.
20-21 Promotion 2015-2016 season, shares minutes with Xavi behind world class starter (Gundogan).
21-22 First team 2016-2017 season, replaces retiring Xavi as second depth behind world class starter (Gundogan) - Here he would be getting just as many minutes and playing games as Thiago even did under Guardiola.
22-23 First team 2017-2018 season, his play can be evaluated to see if it surpassed that of the first choice world class starter (Gundogan). If it did, he could be a first team starter at the age of 23.


All this, while the team's present does not suffer because you were able to bridge the gap with talented players.

Funny thing is, if Thiago would have stayed, this would be the likely scenario to unfold, just instead of Gundogan, Thiago would be the player.

It is not all about having the strongest squad immediately it is about giving the young players a chance to develop as that is what Barcelona is all about. Telling players who are amongst the best young players in the world that they will be at best 3rd choice in their position until the age of 22 wont keep them there.

You're wrong about this though. Barcelona are about playing well, and winning. In order to do this with consistency, they must have the strongest squad they can possibly and realistically get. You cannot forget about the future, but you also cannot neglect the present just because you expect the future to be bright.
There will always be competition in a top team like Barcelona. A player cannot be scared of competition. All they ask if a fair chance to compete, and continuity.

 

[DonAK]

Samper can also be used as a rotating option for Busquets as well as with Xavi and Gundogan(IF he joins which seem very unlikely tbh).

 

[JamDav1982]

I am not saying that Samper is need to be first choice behind Xavi next season at all.

The midfield is not short on numbers this season and Xavi has been getting more rest so should be fresher when the bigger games come round.

Samper will be 19 and 9 months roughly when next season starts and that is not young at all for him to be starting getting first team minutes. Something that would without doubt get restricted if he has two players ahead of him than one definite. If Xavi and Gundogan are both there the manager would be under huge pressure to give them both minutes and Samper would be a distant thought.

In your scenario Samper is third choice in his position at 21/22 years of age. That is worse than situation Thiago was in.

Thiago got a lot of minutes in Peps last season as he played 3-4-3. In that formation he played WITH Xavi and was not competing or rotating with him. When that 3-4-3 clearly did not work and Pep switched back to more of a 4-3-3 then Thiago was not being chosen to start the biggest games and Xavi was.

So to compare Peps last season to Tito last year you have to take into account the formations and both favoured Xavi ahead of Thiago the majority of time it was a choice between the two.

 

[Neymessi]

Thiago was mismanaged because he was promoted and he did not see a clear ascending trend in his role for the team. In fact, he had an ascending trend under Guardiola, that halted and went backwards under Tito.

Xavi does probably have a couple of seasons left, but if someone like Gundogan comes next summer, he would certainly assume the starting role over Xavi, who would still feature heavily in the team, but at a reduced role more fitting for his current physical limitations.

So supposing you buy Gundogan next summer in this scenario, and keep Samper another year in Barca B until he is 20. Gundogan could start, play over 50 games, while Xavi could still be featured to a lesser extend and play around 40.
Then, in the 2015-2016 season, you could promote Samper, reduce Xavi's role further as he would be entering 36 years of age, and you could see a split of Gundogan still featuring over 50 games as your starter, but now Xavi and Samper would share the 40.
By the 2016-2017 season, Xavi is close to 37 and possibly retiring, Gundogan is still your starter for the 3rd year, but now Samper is his full backup (if he merits it) and is only 22-23 years old still, featuring in over 40 games.

That's an ascending trend for Samper as he matures, and you can then evaluate if he merits being pushed ahead of Gundogan for an undisputed starter.

You also take care of the present needs of the team, without harming its future.

perfect strategy arty1:

 

[i_bleed_blaugrana]

Mehh. We simply don't need Gundogan and us fantacising about getting him is pretty pointless in my humble opinion. I'd say there is about a 1% chance he would move to us with the talent we already have in MF. I think a plan B ST and locking down our defense would be a better use of money than splashing at least 30-35 mil on a player we simply don't need.

Contrary to popular belief, we don't need to replace Xavi bc you simply can't. Instead of buying/developing MFs to play like Xavi, we should let the our MF develop its own style and then we match our style to them. Here is my squad for next season, I'll organize it similar to an american football depth chart:

First string players are the first name, active subs second name, etc.

GK: Pepe Reina, Ter Stegen, Oier
- I'd prefer if we ease Ter Stergen into the team because it will take him time to transition into the GK we need. Reina knows our system and at least at the beginning of the season, he should start a few more games than TS. Once TS gets acclimated and hits form, then he can take the #1 spot.

RB: Dani Alves, Montoya, Luiz
RCB: Bartra, Puyol, Masch
LCB: Pique, Luiz, Masch
LB: Alba, Luis Gustavo, Adriano

-Puyol can be used as a utility man, Masch as an emergency CB and I have always liked Luiz and Gustavo, for me, would be a solid signing because he can play as a backup DM and a defensive fullback, something that would help our team a lot defensively

DM: Busi, Masch, Gustavo, Luiz
CM (aka Xavi role): Xavi, Sergi Roberto, Fabregas, Denis Suarez, Samper
AM (Iniesta role): Iniesta, Fabregas, Rafinha

-With our MF, based on the quality we have, we shouldn't need to buy another MF for several years. Sergi Roberto imo should be who we try and push to be Xavi's successor. He has a lot of energy, has the positional discipline and vision to boss possession and is a slightly more physical player than Xavi and that will help him when he drops back defensively. His presence is why I think Gundogan is not needed because he does exactly what people like with Gundogan. With Busi being the best DM in the world, his spots a lock. That third position is tricky though, Iniesta is far from past it and deserves to start every game but so does Fabregas. Sergi suits Fabregas better than he would with Iniesta which is why I think over the course of time, we should try and see if Sergi-Cesc can develop into the next Xavi-Iniesta. Xavi isn't done yet though guys and regardless if he is getting slower, he still dominates possession so completely neglecting him would be dumb as well. So in sum, Xavi, Iniesta, Cesc and Sergi should be our go to AMs and between Suarez, Rafinha and Samper, we should have enough depth to cover rotation and injuries.

RW: Deulofeu, Sanchez, Pedro
ST: Messi, Torres, Dongou
LW: Neymar, Pedro, Iniesta

-Yes that's right, I said Fernando Torres, I'm sure there are some howling at his inclusion but imo he would be a perfect plan B striker. After his tough time in England and his age, I think Torres would accept a bit role just to back in Spain and with a lot less pressure on him this time around, I think he'd do well. He ticks all the boxes of what we need from a plan B ST and I think he would be great for us. Deulofeu will be a world class forward soon and he is consistently improving. He is more creative than Pedro and his ability to beat his marker 1 on 1 is something Pedro, as great of a player as he is, never offered. Wouldn't mind seeing Iniesta filling in as a LW every once in a while, I think he would do well with Cesc right next to him. Neymar-Messi-Deulofeu in full affect would be devastating and with Torres and Pedro filling in as super subs, we'd have a really dominant attack.

OUT:

-Song, 10-12 million. Good player, not suited to our team. He is suited to a double pivot and should play in a team that utilizes it.
-Tello, 15 million. Simply has too much competition to break through the team. Maybe involved with a swap deal for either Gustavo or Torres?
-JDS, whatever we can get
-Afellay, whatever we can get (poor kid...never got a real shot to shine)
-Cuenca, whatever we can get

IN:

-Ter Stegen, 12 million
-Pepe Reina, free
-Luis Gustavo, 15 million
-David Luiz, 35 million
-Fernando Torres, 18 million, should be able to get him at a reduced price.
-Deulofeu, returned on loan.
-Rafinha, returned on loan.
-Samper, promotion.
-Denis Suarez, promotion.

That's just me though, I'm sure I see things differently than most but I don't think we need to splash the cash to address the key issues with our team.

 

[Sumlit]

Mehh. We simply don't need Gundogan and us fantacising about getting him is pretty pointless in my humble opinion. I'd say there is about a 1% chance he would move to us with the talent we already have in MF. I think a plan B ST and locking down our defense would be a better use of money than splashing at least 30-35 mil on a player we simply don't need.

Contrary to popular belief, we don't need to replace Xavi bc you simply can't. Instead of buying/developing MFs to play like Xavi, we should let the our MF develop its own style and then we match our style to them. Here is my squad for next season, I'll organize it similar to an american football depth chart:

First string players are the first name, active subs second name, etc.

GK: Pepe Reina, Ter Stegen, Oier
- I'd prefer if we ease Ter Stergen into the team because it will take him time to transition into the GK we need. Reina knows our system and at least at the beginning of the season, he should start a few more games than TS. Once TS gets acclimated and hits form, then he can take the #1 spot.

RB: Dani Alves, Montoya, Luiz
RCB: Bartra, Puyol, Masch
LCB: Pique, Luiz, Masch
LB: Alba, Luis Gustavo, Adriano

-Puyol can be used as a utility man, Masch as an emergency CB and I have always liked Luiz and Gustavo, for me, would be a solid signing because he can play as a backup DM and a defensive fullback, something that would help our team a lot defensively

DM: Busi, Masch, Gustavo, Luiz
CM (aka Xavi role): Xavi, Sergi Roberto, Fabregas, Denis Suarez, Samper
AM (Iniesta role): Iniesta, Fabregas, Rafinha

-With our MF, based on the quality we have, we shouldn't need to buy another MF for several years. Sergi Roberto imo should be who we try and push to be Xavi's successor. He has a lot of energy, has the positional discipline and vision to boss possession and is a slightly more physical player than Xavi and that will help him when he drops back defensively. His presence is why I think Gundogan is not needed because he does exactly what people like with Gundogan. With Busi being the best DM in the world, his spots a lock. That third position is tricky though, Iniesta is far from past it and deserves to start every game but so does Fabregas. Sergi suits Fabregas better than he would with Iniesta which is why I think over the course of time, we should try and see if Sergi-Cesc can develop into the next Xavi-Iniesta. Xavi isn't done yet though guys and regardless if he is getting slower, he still dominates possession so completely neglecting him would be dumb as well. So in sum, Xavi, Iniesta, Cesc and Sergi should be our go to AMs and between Suarez, Rafinha and Samper, we should have enough depth to cover rotation and injuries.

RW: Deulofeu, Sanchez, Pedro
ST: Messi, Torres, Dongou
LW: Neymar, Pedro, Iniesta

-Yes that's right, I said Fernando Torres, I'm sure there are some howling at his inclusion but imo he would be a perfect plan B striker. After his tough time in England and his age, I think Torres would accept a bit role just to back in Spain and with a lot less pressure on him this time around, I think he'd do well. He ticks all the boxes of what we need from a plan B ST and I think he would be great for us. Deulofeu will be a world class forward soon and he is consistently improving. He is more creative than Pedro and his ability to beat his marker 1 on 1 is something Pedro, as great of a player as he is, never offered. Wouldn't mind seeing Iniesta filling in as a LW every once in a while, I think he would do well with Cesc right next to him. Neymar-Messi-Deulofeu in full affect would be devastating and with Torres and Pedro filling in as super subs, we'd have a really dominant attack.

OUT:

-Song, 10-12 million. Good player, not suited to our team. He is suited to a double pivot and should play in a team that utilizes it.
-Tello, 15 million. Simply has too much competition to break through the team. Maybe involved with a swap deal for either Gustavo or Torres?
-JDS, whatever we can get
-Afellay, whatever we can get (poor kid...never got a real shot to shine)
-Cuenca, whatever we can get

IN:

-Ter Stegen, 12 million
-Pepe Reina, free
-Luis Gustavo, 15 million
-David Luiz, 35 million
-Fernando Torres, 18 million, should be able to get him at a reduced price.
-Deulofeu, returned on loan.
-Rafinha, returned on loan.
-Samper, promotion.
-Denis Suarez, promotion.

That's just me though, I'm sure I see things differently than most but I don't think we need to splash the cash to address the key issues with our team.

Yeah the team has plenty of midfielders, but most are of the attacking variety. Only Xavi (who is old), Samper (who is too young) and Roberto (who at this points only looks like a good support player) are able to bring the work rate and defensive contribution needed from the role.
The team had a very good succession line in Xavi to Thiago to Samper, but they lost the bridge in the middle. They need to find a replacement.

Or, if the team plans to play with 2 attacking midfielders, they need to sacrifice a forward for another defensive midfield contributor. Busi alone cannot police the midfield with 2 offensive minded midfielders and 3 forwards.

 

[Semi-Neutral]

-Yes that's right, I said Fernando Torres, I'm sure there are some howling at his inclusion but imo he would be a perfect plan B striker. After his tough time in England and his age, I think Torres would accept a bit role just to back in Spain and with a lot less pressure on him this time around, I think he'd do well. He ticks all the boxes of what we need from a plan B ST and I think he would be great for us.

Only striker I can think of who I'd be happy with as a plan B.

 

[Sumlit]

How are you going to pry Torres away from Mourinho for anything remotely close to a reasonable price?

 

[Deco 20]

How are you going to pry Torres away from Mourinho for anything remotely close to a reasonable price?

Pay for the plane ticket

 

[KhaledBarca]

Latest news:
- Ter Stegan to Barcelona is a done deal [fee: 10M].
- Reina will also join if Pinto didn't renew his contract [decision according to Bartomeu could be made in February].

 

[DonAndres]

Sumlit's idea of Gundogan->Samper does make a lot of sense when explained, very thorough and sound logic, but I don't see it as the only possibility and it is a bit more complicated for the inclusion of both young midfielders.

As Xavi starts declining, I think we all agree that we don't necessarily have to stop playing him in the big games when he is fresh and rested. In the mean time for a majority of games, we can prioritize Cesc-Iniesta as our starting midfield for medium to low level games. Iniesta has moved deeper this season, averaging around 70 passes per game when last season I think he averaged around 50 or so. Busquets has also been a huge contributor in our passing play as a deep lying playmaker this season, as seen against various teams (most notably Athletic) he was dominating the midfield more than Xavi himself even. Both players are quite different from Xavi in their respective roles but as they take more responsibility in our buildup within their own positions, we won't sacrifice a huge amount of control during those smaller games and will remain effective, saving Xavi for more sporadic time and the biggest games.

Also the myth is that Xavi offers more defensively than Iniesta or Cesc but to be honest even though he is deeper, this season he does less defensive work due to his age and fatigue. Iniesta has around 1.7 tackles and .9 interceptions per game compared to Xavi's .8 tackles and .4 interceptions. Cesc has had .9 tackles per game and .4 interceptions, but it can also be noted that his defensive stats have decreased since he's spent so much time at false 9.

With us utilizing our own current midfielders to bear the burden of dictating the tempo without Xavi, we circumvent having to buy an outside player and can transition Samper in without obstacles or pressure. He should deservedly get some decent time next season (IMO he's intelligent and mature enough to handle it earlier than other youngsters) and slowly take on more responsibility as the years go on. Song will probably still be here next season so Samper can be the deep midfield deputy for both Xavi's mobile orchestrator position and Busquets pivot position in small games or sub appearances.

 

[DonAK]

Hopefully an official announcement comes soon as well if thats the case.

 

[KhaledBarca]

According to Sport:
- Pinto could join coaching staff
- Tello will stay

And Most important

@barcastuff: Everything indicates that the renewal of Marc Bartra (22) will be closed in the coming days. Could already be announced on Tuesday. [el9]