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Interesting ideas . Where does Busq fit into it all though ?
Also why couldn't we slip Masch into the RB slot ?
Is it that crazy ?
He's fast , committed and boy can he tackle
He said he'd play anywhere and if Zabeleta can do it ......
BBZ8800
Senior Member
This sounds like Bartra is more important than the whole club.
He may or may not develop into a first team player.
If he does develop, there is a chance that he will make a lot of mistakes in key Champions league matches in the next 2-3 Seasons (and ruin Messi's and Iniesta's best years).
If he doesn't develop into a good player, then he will both ruin our team in the next 2-3 Seasons with his mistakes and in the end, we won't gain (as a club) anything from it. We will wait and wait and wait, but we won't get anything in the end.
Too many fans are asking: "Let's play Bartra, Montoya, Rafinha, Deulofeu, Adama" and that's it.
That "is" a team of the future champions.
This is not a Football manager. In manager games, 50% of young La Masia players turn out to be a new Messi and Xavi. They only need some talent and you have to play them and they almost always develop into monsters.
In Real life, 1 out of 20 players turns out into something. Not into Messi, but into some sort of a first team playable player.
In reality, there is a much bigger chance that any new young La Masia player will turn into a new Cuenca, Sergi Roberto, Bojan, Giovani Dos Santos and similar than they will turn into a new Messi, Xavi or Busquets.
Messi and Busquets happened once, nobody knows when they will happen again.
But people are overrating the power of La Masia and the potential of our young players.
This is why we SHOULD buy a real, proven CB, and not some guy who will be equally as good/poor as Bartra.
There is a chance that Bartra will always be a guy who will be guilty for 0:7 losses against Bayern, goals like Bale's etc.
We need a proven Cb, and with Bartra and young players, we will see what will happen.
Maybe he will improve, maybe he won't.
It is extremely brave to say that he is "the one" for the future and that he will improve.
That is extremely risky and hard to tell.
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that's something you have to take
you can't invest millions into la masia and then be scared to use them.
Of course it's difficult because you always want to win and kids should be allowed to make mistakes.
In the current state 1Cb is necessary and maybe a replacement for Masche. in the end Pique, Bartra, Masch and Luiz should be a decent defense.
If you want to spend 40 mill on a player i would never go for a 19year old. One good season isn't just enough for that kind of money,
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Learo
Guest
Actually, people underestimate La Masia. Of the 3 dozens players we have signed over the last 6 years, only Dani Alves have managed to be a regular season after season. The rest of our starting lineup are La Masia graduates. Is 1 out of 30 purchases a success for our transfer policy? Or should we take the hint and focus on La Masia, the system that has brought us the greatest success ever?
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Flavia
Guest
That's misleading... This current generation is one in a million. And you're forgetting Abidal, Eto'o, Henry, Yaya, even Maxwell, Adriano, Marquez, Milito. They all played a part for Barça success these past years.
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Learo
Guest
They are not one in a million IMO. It was said after Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta and Valdes... But younger players like Messi, Pique, Cesc, Busquets, Alba, Pedro show that is not the case. And Thiago is even younger and part of a 3rd generation again, 13 years younger than Puyol.
I am not saying that no signing took part of our success. But the last 6 years have shown that players we sign at most last for a year or two if they even manage to get a starting spot, while La Masia players cement their place in the starting 11 for years.
MagIX
Senior Member
If you are talking from the Pep era (start 2008), I agree with you. Our transfer market in the last 6 years has been disastrous.
Our success in the last 6 years are based on players of la masia.
I agree that this current generation is one in a million.
But Abidal, Eto'o, Henry, Yaya, Marquez, Milito have been bought before Pep era, more than 6 years ago. Maxwell and Adriano are/is simpy good subs.
The true ist that our transfer market in the last 6 years has been disastrous. This is one of the main raison of our current problems.
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Flavia
Guest
But it's misleading because la masia won't produce Xavis, Iniestas or Messis on a regular basis. It was very fortunate they coincided during this era. And I'm not saying la masia players should be disregarded, not at all. It should remain the focal point... But Bartra, for instance, is far from ready. The team needs another wc CB, asap.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
That is questionable. If I were a president, I wouldn't rely that much (only) on La Masia.
Again, I don't know how other fans here are old, but La Masia wasn't that "fruitful" like in the current generation.
And it is hard to tell whether that is just a lucky generation, or that will be a rule.
Look, even Manchester United had a golden generation in the 90s with a lot of players from their youth system.
After that, they have never been able to repeat this.
Also, again, this is NOT a Football manager. Again, in those games, virtually any young gem becomes a new Messi.
Just a reminder:
-- in 2000+ Saviola was the best players of the youth World cup
-- he was signed by us, and me, as a young fan back then, thought: "Oh, he is gonna be the new Maradona"
-- well, he wasn't
-- he never lived up to expectations, even though, again, he was THE BEST young player in the world that moment
-- a few years later, papers started to write stories about two new young South america gems, Argentinians D'Alessandro and Gago
-- they were meant to be new Maradona and Redondo
-- they never turned out into something special, even though, again, they were the best players in the world in their generation
-- later, the same story about Brasilian Diego, he was meant to be the best 10' in the future
-- also, 10 years ago, Liverpool bought two brightest young prospects in the world, forwards Sinama-Pongolle and Le Tallec
-- they were two extremely good young forwards who won Fifa U-17 2001 Championship with France
-- papers and all coaches labeled them as new Henry+Trezeguet
-- in those days, people thought that Liverpool bought two best young players in the world
-- what happened? a total failure
-- none lived up not even near to expectations
-- further, 15 years ago, Robbie Keane was the best young forward in the world
-- he was "the new (Brasilian) Ronaldo"
-- he was just a good/very good/average striker later
-- he never became a new Ronaldo
-- true, I remember watching Iniesta when he played for young Spanish teams and people said that he will be the best one day. And he did
-- also, Messi did the same
Another user posted how many fails we have in buying players. Ok, for "younger" Barca's fans, here are some players in the last 10-15 years that were meant to be new big thing from La Masia, but they never succeeded:
1. Giovanni Dos Santos, extremely big prospect, he was meant to be as good as Ronaldinho..
"In 2005, Ronaldinho was the most mesmerising player at senior level, Leo Messi was bewitching all at the U-20 world cup, and Giovanni Dos Santos was earning rave reviews for orchestrating Mexico’s 3-0 victory over Brazil in the U-17 World Cup final. Giovanni, as he was known (despite potential confusion with Giovanni “Gio” Van Bronkhurst, the clubs left back) was a guaranteed future star.
Comparisons to Ronaldinho were based on more than just his wavy mane. He possessed similarly skilful dribbling, creativity, and vision. Ultimately, Giovanni struggled for opportunities; his competitive debut in September 2007 coming at a time when Leo Messi had just cemented his place as first choice right winger and Thierry Henry’s arrival had added more competition on the other flank. His impressive hat-trick against Real Murcia in 2008 was an endnote that helped attract suitors such as Tottenham Hotspur.
Competition would again get the better of Dos Santos, with Aaron Lennon, Kranjcar and the evolution of Gareth Bale hindering his progress at Spurs. Rock bottom for Giovanni was the fall down a league into the grateful grasp of Ipswich Town (for whom he did fire four in eight Championship games). This from a player who Henry suggested would be “one of the best players in the world.” A return to La Liga seems to have benefitted him though, and first with Mallorca and now with Villarreal, he is showing at least a fraction of the talent he was professed to possess."
2. Bojan Krkic, the best FC in lower ranks in Barca's history. He looked better than Messi in young age..
"Barcelona’s biggest teenage sensation since Lionel Messi. In many ways, Bojan’s rise through the youth ranks had arguably generated more excitement than the Argentine maestro, as the lethal forward set about obliterating and superseding Leo’s early achievements. A youth team goal ratio of a 100 goals a season carried the 16 year old into Barca B, where his 10 goals in 22 was superior to Messi’s record, at the same age, of six in 22. His first team career began with more record breaking. Debuting in 2007 against Osasuna at 17 years and 19 days old, he replaced Messi as Barcelona’s youngest ever La Liga player.
Despite mirroring Messi in his arrival into the first team, it was a rivalry with another older La Masia graduate that seemed to slow Bojan’s progress. Despite hitting double figures in each of his first three seasons between 2007 and 2010, the out and out goalscorer offered less to Barcelona’s tiki-taka than the hardworking Pedro, who became a Pep favourite from 2008 onwards. Spells at Roma, Milan, and now, Ajax have been far from prolific but there is hope: he at least is playing Champions League football and by virtues of a loan deal, is still technically a Barcelona player"
3. Gai Assulin:
"Once the poster boy of La Masia, he was the exemplorary player chosen to star in Barcelona’s series of YouTube coaching clips for Nike in 2008. Since then he suffered the most dramatic fall into anonymity. The “new Messi” tag was immediately thrown his way, partly due to the Israeli’s physical appearance, sporting the same shoulder length hair as the teenage Messi. In 2010, he was seduced by the new found riches of Manchester City, defecting from the Catalan cause. Yet he failed to make the transition from City’s hastily collected youth talents in their development squad to the expensively assembled starting eleven of pseudo-Galaticos.
A grand total of zero Premier League appearances, fitness concerns, and a loan to Brighton preceded his release by Manchester City. Like Dos Santos, he has sought solace and the chance of revival with a move to one of La Liga’s smaller clubs. Granada snapped him up in the summer, but even they have yet to trust his ability in their first team, farming Gai out to Segunda Division side, Hercules CF."
4. Jeffren:
"Stylistically, Jeffren was Pedro Rodriguez’s match: a winger offering penetration with his immense pace, but their careers have panned off in completely different directions. Jeffren’s journey began smoothly enough, starring for Spain at every youth level from U-16 to U-21 and making an impressive transition from Barca C to Barca B.
He attracted the expected attention of talent thirsty scouts from potential poachers around Europe; a host of Premier League clubs including Arsenal (who so infamously lured away Cesc) reportedly lined up offers. Jeffren stayed. It seemed that he, like Busquets and Pedro, would benefit from Pep Guardiola’s ascension.
Yet, despite being called into the first team squad for 08-09, he did not make the same breakthrough as Pedro. His goal as a sub in the 2010 Clasico was the crowning glory of the definitive game of Guardiola’s tenure, 5-0 against Real, and thus far has been the pinnacle of his career. Sold to Sporting Lisbon in 2011, with a cautious buy-back clause inserted, there seems little chance of the clause being exercised as Jeffren struggles to get a game in the Portuguese Primeira Liga."
5. Mikel Arteta
6. Fernando Navaro
7. Haruna Babangida, debuted with age 15 in Barcelona's first team in a Preseason friendly
8. hundreds of other less bright prospects
So, again, when users say: Don't buy anyone, we have got Delu, Adama, Bartra, Rafinha and 10 other La Masia prospects..
If 1 one of those 5 becomes a regular first 11 started, it will be awesome.
Even if you are the best young player in the world, you probably have less than 50% chances to turn into something special.
And not to mention if you are just a good player in Barca B.
There is a long way to go from being a Barca B prospect to being Barca's first team player.
And it doesn't happen only with playing minutes in the first team. You need 1000 things: no injuries, strong mentality, some luck, huge potential..
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
Exactly.
If Bartra turns out into a new Puyol, awesome.
But chances for that are like 10-20% at most.
More likely is that he will be an average La Liga defender, never good enough for Barca.
This club is too huge to gamble and rely only on youth players, knowing how rarely one of them actually turns into something good.
So, we need both CB and a Fc, and see what will happen with younger players.
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Learo
Guest
I see your point, but we need to give La Masia players the chance they deserve as well. La Masia has served us very, very well, and we should pay that back by given the players confidence. Look what happened to Thiago. Busquets could have been disregarded by saying that we cant take the risk on him, la masia cant produce WC players all the time after all. But look how he turned out. Now we have a new generation again. A third generation, not from the early Puyol-Xavi era, and not from the late 1980s Busi, Messi, Pique era. Thiago, Bartra, Rafinha. These players could be backbones of any world class team. And Grimaldo, Denis Suarez and others waiting in the wings.
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instinct
Guest
Barcelona and Real Madrid are both interested in Arturo Vidal. Price is 40MIL. Alexis and Adriano could take part in the deal [Sport]
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