Barça's Transfers and Rumors

[BBZ8800]

that's one way to look at it but the wrong one imo
according to this idea Bartra should have been sold last year (he played really bad against Bayern)

eg I only see sergi play after minute 88 and when he starts it's once in a season with b-players like Song.
A chance is giving him 4-5 in a row in a midfield with Busi/iniesta/..., no matter what.
If in oktober no title will be jeopardized and after those games you get an idea if he got what it takes.

But a coach sees players on trainings each week. He knows what they can do.
There is a reason why Messi was playing at the age 16-17 and why Guily had to go, because Messi was better than him already at the age 17-18.
And Guily was awesome and a key player in attacking trio Ronaldinho-Eto'o-Guily in those Seasons.

Messi:
-- had potential 10/10
-- played for 10/10 in youth teams
-- played 10/10 from the game 1 in A-team
-- played 10/10 in upcoming Seasons

Bojan Krkic:
-- had potential 10/10
-- played for 10/10 in youth teams
-- played 6-7/10 from the game 1 in A-team
-- played 6-7/10 in upcoming Seasons
-- we had to let him go

But if a player is average/nothing extraordinary both in potential and youth teams, and if he again plays average in matches in A-team, it is hard to give him 1000 chances over and over.

Montoya or Sergi Roberto never had the same potential as Messi or Iniesta.
And their displays have also been just good/average.
It is hard to expect that a player who is not a world class potential and who hasn't showed anything special on 10-20 matches in A-team will suddenly become a player on whom we can rely in Champions league (I am talking about Montoya and Roberto here)

Bartra is slightly better lately. But he is still far from a Barca level, and miles away from Puyol (or even Luiz level, whom we don't want to buy)

Gambling on Bojan and Gio Dos Santos (and waiting on them for a little longer) is more reasonable since they had a world-class potential. And they played poorly (the same as Alcantara). With those players it is worth to wait and see if they can adapt and play better after 1-2-3 Seasons (like Alcantara later did).

But with players with average potential and average displays from the day 1, it doesn't seem too reasonable to rely only on them (I am replying to the post where users said that we don't need expensive CB because we have Bartra).

It would be insane to have Messi, who is worth 250M, Neymar worth 100, Iniesta and similar players and then in the defense to rely only on Bartra, who has like 1:5 chances to become a Barca material.

If we wouldn't have money, like Arsenal, then we should rely only on Bartra, Montoya, Roberto, Rafinha, Delo etc.
But since we already have Messi, Neymar, Iniesta and similar players, it would be better to rely on proven Cbs and with Bartra and other guys, see what will happen and how they will develop.

Again, you can't ruin the whole club because of 1-2 young players.
Again, if that player would be Bojan or Gio Dos Santos, ok, since they have/had world-class potential.

But to gamble everything only to see how will one good/average defender progress, well, that doesn't have any sense.

 

[Learo]

Is there anyone here who say we shouldnt buy anyone this summer and only rely on youth players? I dont think I've seen it.

But keep in mind that players develop at different ages. Players like Pedro, Puyol, Busquets were never expected to do great things when they were teenagers. I dont think players like Sergi Roberto have even had 3 starts in a row for us, Has he even started 2 games with regular first teamers (not counting reserve teams in the Copa)?

When Montoya got a few games in a row, he was called up by Del Bosque for Spain. He should definitely have had more chances. Its really hard to impress when playing once every 4 weeks. Even our regulars would really struggle with such erratic play time.

 

[Sumlit]

Is there anyone here who say we shouldnt buy anyone this summer and only rely on youth players? I dont think I've seen it.

But keep in mind that players develop at different ages. Players like Pedro, Puyol, Busquets were never expected to do great things when they were teenagers. I dont think players like Sergi Roberto have even had 3 starts in a row for us, Has he even started 2 games with regular first teamers (not counting reserve teams in the Copa)?

When Montoya got a few games in a row, he was called up by Del Bosque for Spain. He should definitely have had more chances. Its really hard to impress when playing once every 4 weeks. Even our regulars would really struggle with such erratic play time.

Barcelona doesn't have the luxury to give youth players consecutive starts and abundant minutes just to see what they can show. This is a team expected to compete and expected to win every single game and every single competition every single year. They can't do that by giving trial minutes to youngsters. This is not Celta who isn't expected to amount to much other than not being relegated, and thus can afford to give Rafinha a starting spot the entire year.

If you show promise, you are promoted and given spare minutes. After that, it is up to the player to seize the opportunity and shine in the limited time. Neither Roberto, nor Montoya has shined. Bartra got the benefit of injuries that afforded him more opportunity to impress, even still, he has not totally convinced despite strong improvement.

 

[serghei]

Barcelona doesn't have the luxury to give youth players consecutive starts and abundant minutes just to see what they can show. This is a team expected to compete and expected to win every single game and every single competition every single year. They can't do that by giving trial minutes to youngsters. This is not Celta who isn't expected to amount to much other than not being relegated, and thus can afford to give Rafinha a starting spot the entire year.

If you show promise, you are promoted and given spare minutes. After that, it is up to the player to seize the opportunity and shine in the limited time. Neither Roberto, nor Montoya has shined. Bartra got the benefit of injuries that afforded him more opportunity to impress, even still, he has not totally convinced despite strong improvement.

+1. Nothing more to add.

 

[Learo]

Barcelona doesn't have the luxury to give youth players consecutive starts and abundant minutes just to see what they can show. This is a team expected to compete and expected to win every single game and every single competition every single year. They can't do that by giving trial minutes to youngsters. This is not Celta who isn't expected to amount to much other than not being relegated, and thus can afford to give Rafinha a starting spot the entire year.

If you show promise, you are promoted and given spare minutes. After that, it is up to the player to seize the opportunity and shine in the limited time. Neither Roberto, nor Montoya has shined. Bartra got the benefit of injuries that afforded him more opportunity to impress, even still, he has not totally convinced despite strong improvement.

We end up with a situation where our youth refuses to sign contract extensions and they end up in other top clubs if they see that their path is basically blocked. Even Thiago left because he wanted more playing time. Yes, I agree, there is always a risk of playing youth players, but there is also a risk of playing the same players week in week out, like we have done with Xavi and a few others. And having a team of expensive big names is also a risk, because the expensive player will almost always play regardless of performance and complacency can kick in. That is not a risk when playing youth players who love the club and want to impress. So there are different factors to take into consideration.

 

[Sumlit]

We end up with a situation where our youth refuses to sign contract extensions and they end up in other top clubs if they see that their path is basically blocked. Even Thiago left because he wanted more playing time. Yes, I agree, there is always a risk of playing youth players, but there is also a risk of playing the same players week in week out, like we have done with Xavi and a few others. And having a team of expensive big names is also a risk, because the expensive player will almost always play regardless of performance and complacency can kick in. That is not a risk when playing youth players who love the club and want to impress. So there are different factors to take into consideration.

Thiago's situation was different. Here's a player who had already gone through his trial period and had shown to be talented and capable, and had shown to be ready to be counted upon for a starting role, who was being passed up, mismanaged and neglected.

Montoya's and Roberto's situations are different because through their trial period, they simply have not proven to be deserving of more. Montoya more than likely will get more opportunities to step up next year, because of his position and the lack of quality world wide, but Roberto had a small window to shine and he simply looked as meat and potatoes as you can look. With the talent on the team at that position, and the talent coming up the pipe, as a youth player you simply cannot afford to look so mundane when given a shot to show your wares.

 

[Learo]

I see your point, but I do think it is worrying that our coaches only give a fraction of the minutes to youth unlike what we did in the years before with Pep and also Rijkaard. Youth minutes are drying up fast. Im quite sure Lucho will change this. At least I hope. I think some managers are too scared for their job. Pep wasnt.

 

[Sumlit]

I see your point, but I do think it is worrying that our coaches only give a fraction of the minutes to youth unlike what we did in the years before with Pep and also Rijkaard. Youth minutes are drying up fast. Im quite sure Lucho will change this. At least I hope. I think some managers are too scared of their position. Pep wasnt.

There's another aspect to consider. Youth minutes have a direct correlation with team success and domination. When the team is romping opponents in the first half of games, there are minutes to be had for youth players in second halfs of games. When the team is killing copa ties in the first legs and clinching group stages of UCL early, there are minutes to be had for youth players.

This year, not only has La Liga proved to me far more competitive than previous years, but this current team is nowhere near as dominant as it used to. Needing to keep first teamers in longer and play them more regularly because matches and competitions are closer due to the team no longer being able to run over opponents, is a huge reason for lesser youth minutes.

Don't forget Martino showed tendency to give youth players minutes early on. It wasn't until things starter to get tighter that he started to put more on the first teamers.

 

[1207]

But a coach sees players on trainings each week. He knows what they can do.

no, certain things can't be seen.
how do they behave playing in front of 80 000 man eg.

But if a player is average/nothing extraordinary both in potential and youth teams, and if he again plays average in matches in A-team, it is hard to give him 1000 chances over and over.

Barca has the best youth system in the world. if this coaches decide that players should get into the first team then they aren't average or not talented, that's a matter of definition. Not using them eventually is a mistake and the responsibility of the manager.
There is also a difference between 1000 chances or just throw him in at a mission impossible or 5 minutes every month. Bartra's only game last season was a semi CL against Mandzukic, Muller and Robben.

Montoya or Sergi Roberto never had the same potential as Messi or Iniesta.

If the potential of Messi is a deciding factor/element then you should end la Masia and/or every other youth system.

Again, you can't ruin the whole club because of 1-2 young players.

nobody claims that or wants that
but thinking that a defense Alves-pique-Bartra- alba or Montoya-Pique- Masch-Adriano is too weak to beat 90% of the Barca opposition is a quite pessimistic view.
like I said, players like messi, xavi or iniesta are one in a lifetime so you should lower your expectations and don't compare everybody to them.

if france would compare every AM with Zidane they will never again find somebody. if Milan Is looking for Maldini 2.0 for their LB position they will have a problem too. Same goes for Pele, Cruyff,...

every team needs backup and players on the bench, that's what i'm talking about. IF there is an iniesta 2.0 that's great but chasing your youth LB away just to buy Vertonghen a year later is stupid.
of course, you could invest 100mill and buy the 4 best cb's in the world but in the end only 2 can play. Benching players who cost you 30mill each can become problematic.

Thiago left last year because Tito didn't play him enough and now he is a regular at bayern. As a result we are talking about a new midfielder who'll cost around 30-40m. Just keeping Thiago would 've been easier and cheaper.
I think some people here are a bit too scared. Busi-Iniesta-Sergi should be enough to beat 90% of the opposition

just to give you an idea
http://www.totalbarca.com/2014/news/tata-overlooks-la-masia/

 

[PaulTaylor]

Barcelona can afford to start Youngsters regularly against the weaker teams in la liga it just takes a good manager with the balls to pick his own team and drop players who haven't been playing great all season and play a youngster. If you don't give a youngster a chance then he'll never be able to develop to be a first team player. Last season Montoya was ahead of Carjaval in Spain U21 Montoya rarely starts for Barcelona, Carjaval is first choice for Real Madrid and in the full spain team.

 

[Sumlit]

Barcelona can afford to start Youngsters regularly against the weaker teams in la liga it just takes a good manager with the balls to pick his own team and drop players who haven't been playing great all season and play a youngster. If you don't give a youngster a chance then he'll never be able to develop to be a first team player. Last season Montoya was ahead of Carjaval in Spain U21 Montoya rarely starts for Barcelona, Carjaval is first choice for Real Madrid and in the full spain team.

The bottom 6 teams in La Liga have cost Barcelona 10 points this season (2 ties and 2 loses), so no, I don't think the team can go about risking valuable points by giving minutes to youngsters against this supposed "weaker teams" in La Liga. You cannot say that a manager needs to have "balls" to play youngsters because if he does have "balls", plays the youngsters, and drops points, people will forget the "balls" and criticize the risk.

The best way to give minutes to youngsters, apart from them showing clear merit and good performances, is for the team to start dominating again so that secured results in matches makes giving minutes to youngsters less chance of back-firing.

Carvajal situation is different because not only did Arbeloa have a long term injury, Arbeloa himself is god-awful. That Carvajal replaced him is more indictment on Arbeloa than merit of Carvajal.

 

[PaulTaylor]

The bottom 6 teams in La Liga have cost Barcelona 10 points this season (2 ties and 2 loses), so no, I don't think the team can go about risking valuable points by giving minutes to youngsters against this supposed "weaker teams" in La Liga. You cannot say that a manager needs to have "balls" to play youngsters because if he does have "balls", plays the youngsters, and drops points, people will forget the "balls" and criticize the risk.

The best way to give minutes to youngsters, apart from them showing clear merit and good performances, is for the team to start dominating again so that secured results in matches makes giving minutes to youngsters less chance of back-firing.

Carvajal situation is different because not only did Arbeloa have a long term injury, Arbeloa himself is god-awful. That Carvajal replaced him is more indictment on Arbeloa than merit of Carvajal.

But you need someone who won't play players who have been under-peforming for a long time just because they are who they are. I'm also not saying play 11 inexperienced players, just the 1 or 2 like play Montoya over Alves in smaller games. But it completely takes the piss playing Adriano over Montoya at RB when Alves is injured and not even in the big games either. Playing Sanchez and Pedro who have both been poor in the large part in the past 2 or 3 years and leaving substitutes until the 80th minute.

 

[Learo]

Youngsters dont progress by playing when already up 4 or 5-0 and nobody in the team care to put in much effort. Thats not how Rijkaard and Pep developed players. They were given responsibility and playing time in minutes that mattered.

 

[Sumlit]

But you need someone who won't play players who have been under-peforming for a long time just because they are who they are. I'm also not saying play 11 inexperienced players, just the 1 or 2 like play Montoya over Alves in smaller games. But it completely takes the piss playing Adriano over Montoya at RB when Alves is injured and not even in the big games either. Playing Sanchez and Pedro who have both been poor in the large part in the past 2 or 3 years and leaving substitutes until the 80th minute.

Who would you have subbed in for Pedro and Alexis? The team is devoid of quality depth.

Maybe Montoya could have gotten more minutes here and there, but we also don't know all the details. The manager has much more information on the players, tactics and details of the team than any of us do. So he trusts Adriano a bit more than Montoya. Adriano was a quality backup all season long, hard to criticize that trust.

Montoya could have helped himself a lot more by playing better and really separating himself from Adriano, and he just did not do it. It would be a different argument if Montoya had shown some really outstanding play in the minutes given and still not been trusted more. Then you'd have a stronger point. As it was, Montoya just did not set himself apart with his play.

 

[Sumlit]

Youngsters dont progress by playing when already up 4 or 5-0 and nobody in the team care to put in much effort. Thats not how Rijkaard and Pep developed players. They were given responsibility and playing time in minutes that mattered.

You want more minutes, that's how you get more minutes without risking the team's result. When you have a strong team you can risk youngsters because the team can handle their mistakes. This team is nowhere near as strong as it used to. A mistake from a young player can, and has costed the team games.