Claudio Bravo

[Kerrybai]

Not to mention he outperformed the likes of Neuer in the league with the best keepers in the world at the age of 20.
But yeaaaah, let the best young keeper in the world go to Liverpool, we'll easily find a replacement if a few years...

How about we keep both happy ? I'm pretty sure Lucho will manage the situation well.

 

[mark1nhu]

yes, true for all three, but we can't make the wrong decision today based on having a better keeper after 3-4 seasons. Thats also a an assumption, there is also a chance mats not living upto expectation after we decide to keep him & vice versa. So its a tough choice, but i will go with bravo.

As I said to BBZ: Mats already proved himself on a high note, while our board already proved being a little bit incompetent on squad renewal/long term planning.

My assumption is based on rocks more solid than yours.

 

[mark1nhu]

There is way higher possibility that we will be able to buy a good Gk (or 2-3-4 of them) once when Bravo retires than relying only on one player as if he is the only option in the world (Mats).

Apparently you forgot we demand our keepers to be very good with footwork and is completely underestimating the difficulty to find a great one for our level and style.

We did it when Valdes left, you will say, but this is exactly what I am urging against: count on luck and the best case scenario.

There are lots of older, experienced world class keepers in the world and there are always a few of awesome La Liga Gks in midtable teams, like Bravo before he came to Barca.

Of course there are world class keepers out there, but you cannot guarantee they will be available when we need them... Can you?

Same goes for CB. There are world class ones out there but we still couldn't catch none of them for the last, what?, four/five years?

Again: you are betting on the best case scenario. It's completely the opposite of a strategic planning.

I don't want that either Bravo or Mats leave the club, but none of them is exactly Messi, a player whom you can't possibly buy or replicate ever again.
They are good, but any of them can be "replicated". Especially Mats...
World won't stop tomorrow if we lose our 2nd choice Gk.

No one said they are irreplaceable, but since no one can guarantee we will be capable of replicating our last successful GK signings, it's completely short-sighted to ignore the fact that we already have a great replacement for the first GK spot.

True.
It is not good too have too many oldies in the same time.
But also, relying too much on future which may or may not come, will ruin Messi's final years and will eventually turn us into Arsene Wenger's Arsenal.
A team which is always waiting for "the next Season". The next season will be better. They have new, younger, better players coming...
And then in the next season, they will have even "better" potentials for the next season.
And then again and again and again.
They are always waiting for the future which will never come because of their flawed philosophy.

We are not that kind of a club.

WTF?

Mats already proved himself on a high note. He was the GK on CL and Copa title.

Did he ruined something for Messi? Seriously man, WHAT AN ACTUAL FUCK?

Guarantee his future at Barça is something I want EXACTLY to avoid ruining our dominance on the coming years (something you are willing to risk with this "yeah, we think about it when we need" kind of short-sighted thinking).

 

[mark1nhu]

Goalkeepers for Barça were always a problem. I see no logic in letting MAtS go for some supposedly gk that might or not appear in the future, and who might or not fit the team. MAtS fits the team, won CL and Cdr in his 1st season. And honestly, right now him and Bravo look on par. I don't see one being better than the other. Long term planning should prevail here, than an unknown future.

That's what's really surprises me here: people always complain about our board and the pathetic "new CB" saga, which is fair to criticize, but somehow people want to risk the same on a critical position like GK.

 

[mark1nhu]

 

[BBZ8800]

I bet Messi never had been at Barca had BBZ been there instead of Rijkaard. Too young and inexperienced. Can't have risked wasting Ronaldinho's best years you know.

1:0 for you.

Insert Messi example in every debate about whether a younger player should play.

I could exaggerate now and say:
1. Munir, oh no, he has to play, remember what happened to Messi. Give him tons of chances
2. Sandro, oh no, remember young Messi
3. Halil, oh no, remember young Messi
4. Deulofeu, oh no, remember young Messi
5. Adama 2 seasons ago, oh no, remember young Messi

I am too cautious about young players and more or less, I have too less faith on young players.
But on the other side, it is a known thing that 90% of Barcaforum posters are extremely biased and not objective whenever it comes to younger players.
It is in human nature to have some "faith" about the future and nice and bright future is what keeps you "going on".

In Barcaforum's world analogy is: always looking for new, young prospects, even though the present is perfect.
Too many times majority of you would switch a guy with 100 in skills with a guy with 90 in skills.
Because of ifs and maybes.
The 90s guy could turn better. And majority of people just can't resist to that urge, possibility and gamble.
(Arsene Wenger surely can't, lol)

++ Anyway, Messi jumped instead of 2nd weakest player of our team (Guily).
Mats is supposed to enter instead of a rock-Bravo.

Also, Messi is Messi and using his analogy with other mortals is just lol.
If you want a better analogy, Iniesta waited like what, till the age 24 to get more opportunities, right?
If he was so good, why didn't Rijkaard kicked out Deco and Van Bommel much faster, to get more room for our "future gem Iniesta"?

Well, of course that Rijkaard didn't do that.
You can't do those things too often.

So, you see, Rijkaard gave TONS chances to Messi RIGHT AWAY and had insane faith in him, but he didn't give similar chances to Iniesta.
Now, do the maths...

Ter Stegen is better than Bravo in some areas. Worse in some areas. Vice versa for Bravo. It's not a complete drop in skills level.

Yeah, right...
In playing with feet

Adama is also better is some areas than Messi.

In shorter: Bravo is (a much) better keeper in this moment.

 

[BBZ8800]

WTF?

Mats already proved himself on a high note. He was the GK on CL and Copa title.

Did he ruined something for Messi? Seriously man, WHAT AN ACTUAL FUCK?

Guarantee his future at Barça is something I want EXACTLY to avoid ruining our dominance on the coming years (something you are willing to risk with this "yeah, we think about it when we need" kind of short-sighted thinking).

He didn't ruin anything LAST season in a CL.

While this season, he had a very strange start after 5 goals conceded with a U21 NT team and then had a very average to bad 2 Months while Bravo was injured.
More or less, he did mistakes in every match he played.
And way too many times he looked as if he is not concentrated, interested or whatever.
Like: "here's a shot", "oh, well, I can't jump. The shot seems to be too far away from me."
"Oh, look, another one. I won't jump again. I will just stand and watch all the time".

Did you erased a part of this season from your memory?
And no, please don't reply: he was good last season and he is good again.
A player is a sum of all eras, good and bad.
So, again, Mats has some awesome days, but in these 2 seasons, he also had tons of: wtf moments and man, what is wrong with you currently?

Those bad moments could pass over time, as majority of you wish.
But also, he could easily stay the guy who will always have those brainfarts.
Aka: his mistakes are not only a part of his youth/growing up/development. They are just who he is.
That is always a possibility.

That is the part where he may develop into a gk-goat, or where he will never live to our expectations.
Again, majority of you would always like to gamble everything and see whether any player will reach that "best case scenario".
And that is fine if we don't have other options on his position or if we are in a poor era where we could afford gambling and building a new team, without too much pressure in immediate results.
But since we have maybe the best Gk currently in the world on his position, that this testing/gambling is a little harder to do.

 

[Butaan4barca]

As I said to BBZ: Mats already proved himself on a high note, while our board already proved being a little bit incompetent on squad renewal/long term planning.

My assumption is based on rocks more solid than yours.

dude, my point: who is the better keeper ? keep him. let the other one goes if he wants to.

 

[Behrox]

1:0 for you.

Insert Messi example in every debate about whether a younger player should play.

I could exaggerate now and say:
1. Munir, oh no, he has to play, remember what happened to Messi. Give him tons of chances
2. Sandro, oh no, remember young Messi
3. Halil, oh no, remember young Messi
4. Deulofeu, oh no, remember young Messi
5. Adama 2 seasons ago, oh no, remember young Messi

I am too cautious about young players and more or less, I have too less faith on young players.
But on the other side, it is a known thing that 90% of Barcaforum posters are extremely biased and not objective whenever it comes to younger players.
It is in human nature to have some "faith" about the future and nice and bright future is what keeps you "going on".

In Barcaforum's world analogy is: always looking for new, young prospects, even though the present is perfect.
Too many times majority of you would switch a guy with 100 in skills with a guy with 90 in skills.
Because of ifs and maybes.
The 90s guy could turn better. And majority of people just can't resist to that urge, possibility and gamble.
(Arsene Wenger surely can't, lol)

++ Anyway, Messi jumped instead of 2nd weakest player of our team (Guily).
Mats is supposed to enter instead of a rock-Bravo.

Also, Messi is Messi and using his analogy with other mortals is just lol.
If you want a better analogy, Iniesta waited like what, till the age 24 to get more opportunities, right?
If he was so good, why didn't Rijkaard kicked out Deco and Van Bommel much faster, to get more room for our "future gem Iniesta"?

Well, of course that Rijkaard didn't do that.
You can't do those things too often.

So, you see, Rijkaard gave TONS chances to Messi RIGHT AWAY and had insane faith in him, but he didn't give similar chances to Iniesta.
Now, do the maths...



Yeah, right...
In playing with feet

Adama is also better is some areas than Messi.

In shorter: Bravo is (a much) better keeper in this moment.

It is not the same case you are putting out when taking the Messi example in the context of defending Munir,Sandro, etc. All these players have one thing in common which is they are not proven in top flight football whilst having glaring weaknesses in a couple of critical aspects of their game which is required at Barca's level. In MaTS' case, he is not some unknown variable who can be taken into the context of being a risk for the team. MaTS has proved himself a brilliant keeper in the CL, Copa as well as a top flight league in the Bundesliga, so the same argument which is valid for unproven young players (Munir, Sandro, etc) is not valid in the least in regards to MaTS.

 

[BBZ8800]

It is not the same case you are putting out when taking the Messi example in the context of defending Munir,Sandro, etc. All these players have one thing in common which is they are not proven in top flight football whilst having glaring weaknesses in a couple of critical aspects of their game which is required at Barca's level. In MaTS' case, he is not some unknown variable who can be taken into the context of being a risk for the team. MaTS has proved himself a brilliant keeper in the CL, Copa as well as a top flight league in the Bundesliga, so the same argument which is valid for unproven young players (Munir, Sandro, etc) is not valid in the least in regards to MaTS.

Ok.
But again, majority of you stick with the fact how Mats won a CL=and he is "proven" now.
4 Months later he played horribly in a one somewhat longer period where a lot of users from here got really pissed on him and said: "Can't wait for Bravo to return"

He is a player (currently), who can play as a goat on one day, and on the other day he will have a few "wtf" moments in any match.
So, he is NOT only a guy from our CL campaign.
He is both THAT guy, but also a guy who makes huge mistakes on other days.

Like in this short period in this season:

Bravo, on the other hand, maybe because he is older or who knows, maybe he is a different personality, plays much "safer" and is much less prone to errors.
At least in this moment.

If Mats will come to Bravo's level, fine. Sell the older guy and play with youth.
But for anyone who thinks that IN THIS MOMENT Mats is equally as good as Bravo, sorry, you are living in a delusion, probably because of the eternal desire for young players/prospects which can cause some problem in objective looking at things.

 

[6 Ballons for Messi]

Have you seen bravo's passing when we are under pressure? Straight to the opponents 90% of the time.
He's a good keeper but not barca material, mats is our future.

 

[instinct]

I don't have the patience nor willingness to participate in this hilarious debate, but I'd like to add something to the discussion:

Bravo plays great in La Liga against the likes of Betis and Las Palmas while ter-Stegen had his best match for Barça vs Bayern München at the Allianz Arena. He also saved a penalty against Man City and performed well in almost all matches against tougher opponents.

 

[BarçaBarça]

Ok.
But again, majority of you stick with the fact how Mats won a CL=and he is "proven" now.
4 Months later he played horribly in a one somewhat longer period where a lot of users from here got really pissed on him and said: "Can't wait for Bravo to return"

You keep returning to this period to prove that Mats is not at Bravo's level and that he has good days where he is class, and then days where he cost points. But you can't use this period to say he is 60 % class and 40 % mistakes. I told in a previous post why it isn't fair to judge him too hard on that - admittedly bad - period:

You can not compare the conditions in which Ter Stegen performed in September with what Bravo is doing in the league right now. Back then our defence in was very shaky in general: No Pique for some matches due to suspension, Alba was injured 2 games and our backline changed from game to game - all in all: NO stability. (The SuperCopa 4-0 thrashing was with Adriano-Vermaelen-Bartra-Alves). Also he made Liga-debut after a internation break when he hadn't played for a month.

I don't think that period of time tells a lot about Ter Stegens general level - or how many blunders/mistakes he is good for pr. 10 games. My point is - we won't see the mistakes he has made before if he enters into a team with a stable backline and get regular playing time, as Bravo is benefiting from right now.

 

[gasgas]

Ok.
But again, majority of you stick with the fact how Mats won a CL=and he is "proven" now.
4 Months later he played horribly in a one somewhat longer period where a lot of users from here got really pissed on him and said: "Can't wait for Bravo to return"

He is a player (currently), who can play as a goat on one day, and on the other day he will have a few "wtf" moments in any match.
So, he is NOT only a guy from our CL campaign.
He is both THAT guy, but also a guy who makes huge mistakes on other days.

Like in this short period in this season:

Bravo, on the other hand, maybe because he is older or who knows, maybe he is a different personality, plays much "safer" and is much less prone to errors.
At least in this moment.

If Mats will come to Bravo's level, fine. Sell the older guy and play with youth.
But for anyone who thinks that IN THIS MOMENT Mats is equally as good as Bravo, sorry, you are living in a delusion, probably because of the eternal desire for young players/prospects which can cause some problem in objective looking at things.

Just so you know, the season before we bought Bravo 2013-14
Bravo was the goalkeeper in la liga with the most mistakes directly leading to goal (like passing straight to an attacker etc.) by sometime February that season he already had 13 errors. I remember that because it was the reason why i was skeptical about his signing.
I am sure barca chiefs didn't look at a particular bad stretch (in Bravo's case, it was majority of that season), but rather looked at the individual quality that the player has.

Mats had a what, 2 month stretch of bad for? Big deal, all players have those. Even Messi has had those before, and some in crucial moments.
He made errors but most of those errors screamed lack of confidence, and concentration, and not lack of ability, things which can be dealt with by the coach.
those 2 months aside, we have a goalkeeper who was rocking Bundesliga for two seasons, rocked the Copa and the CL, with us, and has age on his side.
Suits our game like a glove and he is the future for us.

i don't mind him being given more games so as to affirm his importance and confidence.
because he has proven that he can handle the pressure and has the ability to play in the grandest stage.

As a bonus, his passing is top notch
Confidence, loss of concentration, those can be fixed.

 

[KingLeo10]

I don't have the patience nor willingness to participate in this hilarious debate, but I'd like to add something to the discussion:

Bravo plays great in La Liga against the likes of Betis and Las Palmas while ter-Stegen had his best match for Barça vs Bayern München at the Allianz Arena. He also saved a penalty against Man City and performed well in almost all matches against tougher opponents.

you raise a valid point but seem to forget that bravo also plays against real and atletico in la liga, along with a string of other relatively good teams.