Beast
The Observer
You cannot argue Messi international career in the olympics & Under 20 .. has nothing to do with winning it but has everything to do with how it's never related to the first national team as i said if those trophies mean anything unless you can explain where is the rest of the winners on first team level where is Cameroon , Nigeria .. the same fact i mentioned that despite Argentina dominance on that level they have failed miserably on the first team front despite twice hiring the same coach of the youth team
As for the WC & EC .. again Portugal came higher than Argentina 4th spot in 2006 , EC semi final twice ...
I'm not sure how being in the top 10 shortlist players indicate success when your team crash out early... of course Messi will always be selected duh ! he is the best player of his generation and winner of back to back Ballon D'ore... the question is did he lead his national team higher than Roman , Batistuta ? the answer is no... for CR he actually did despite having duds all around , did he even make the FIFA best 11 ?
Can i say that Higuain & Tevez did a lot better because they actually scored more ? All Messi did was two assists ?
or Can i put that CR won 3 MOM in the WC as indication while Messi didn't get MOM except once in WC 2010 yet magically he was shortlisted for the top 10 (don't know why ) ?
We argue a player leading a team to success and your answer is "Hey he was shortlisted " lol... can you try harder ? leading your team higher is what matter and CR did that even though he is not as talented as Messi
As for the WC & EC .. again Portugal came higher than Argentina 4th spot in 2006 , EC semi final twice ...
I'm not sure how being in the top 10 shortlist players indicate success when your team crash out early... of course Messi will always be selected duh ! he is the best player of his generation and winner of back to back Ballon D'ore... the question is did he lead his national team higher than Roman , Batistuta ? the answer is no... for CR he actually did despite having duds all around , did he even make the FIFA best 11 ?
Can i say that Higuain & Tevez did a lot better because they actually scored more ? All Messi did was two assists ?
or Can i put that CR won 3 MOM in the WC as indication while Messi didn't get MOM except once in WC 2010 yet magically he was shortlisted for the top 10 (don't know why ) ?
We argue a player leading a team to success and your answer is "Hey he was shortlisted " lol... can you try harder ? leading your team higher is what matter and CR did that even though he is not as talented as Messi
Beast; said:
There is no contradiction because Messi has a club career that stands on its own as proof of his quality. He's played as the key player in a dominant Barca in La Liga, he's won a couple of Champions League titles including scoring in both finals he played in, he's got the goalscoring world record, he's won the Balon D'or a record 4 times.
In terms of international career it takes longer for players to mature. In 2006 when Argentina got knocked out by Germany, Messi didn't even play the game. That tournament is not a valid example of how Messi performs in big games for Argentina.
You also misjudge the respective teams. Cristiano plays in a team with a cohesive defense that keeps games close. It's perfect for a great player to show his quality and make the difference. Messi plays in a team which has had poor defensive qualities. When Argentina got knocked out by Germany 4-0, that is clearly a failure of the team and not the player. Put anyone in place of Messi there, be it Maradona, Pele, Cruyff, Ronaldo, Zidane whoever and it wouldn't make a difference and Argentina would have been knocked out because of poor tactics and a frail defense against the German machine. Same could be said of the Copa 2007 final where Brazil won 3-0. You can ask a player to step up and create or score 1 or maybe 2 goals if you're really lucky, but that's all it is. One attribute of the great players are they sometimes make that small difference in the big games. But a hand of God and best goal ever wouldn't be enough in these situations. A Zidane volley or double header wouldn't be enough.
Cristiano on the other hand has had opportunities to make the difference and he hasn't taken them. Lost 2004 Euros final 1-0. Lost 2006 World Cup Semi 1-0. Lost 2008 Euros Quarter 3-2. Lost 2010 World Cup Round of 16 1-0. Lost 2012 Euros Semis 0-0 on penalties. All of these games were close and he had the chance to showcase his attacking abilities but failed to make the difference. Messi however is only now entering his prime, he's equalled the annual goalscoring record for Argentina. We'll have to wait and see how he performs this next world cup to really judge him in terms of internationals.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
That is just one biased line after another.
Ronaldo has led Portugal to nothing at all and has not been better than Messi at msjor tournaments.
In no way did Ronaldo lead Portugal to any good tournament finishes.
Beast, your whole post and the ones following are based on a misconception. That passage from oz' post you highlighted (and I quoted above) says that Xavi and Iniesta are superior on an international basis than Ronaldo, because they made their team world-class and carried it to titles. This is the sole notion of this passage. Nothing about Messi there, except for the statement that Xaviniesta have done that without Messi as he's obviously not a Spanish player. What you are doing is drawing a false conclusion:
1. "Xaviniesta have carried their team to titles."
2. "Ronaldo hasn't done that"
-> "Messi has done that"
While the actual conclusion is "Xaviniesta are superior to Ronaldo on that level", a statement you surely agree with.
Not going into your other points, the bias is obvious.
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Daemul
previously known as Jonathan28
Bloody hell, the Barca fans here are embarrassing. Henry better than Ronaldo? Ronaldo not in the top 20 of all time? What the fuck am I reading? Please tell me that you people are just being moronically biased and that you don't actually believe the bullshit you are spewing?
Sallou
New member
In terms of his actual quality of football, and not just his stats and scoring exploits, then no. He's not even close to top 20 of all time. His overall game and overall technical ability isn't even close to being on par with Iniesta. But the few areas he does happen to excel in are very, very valuable. His runs are up there with the best in the world, and he is very good at getting himself a goal whenever he can- combined with his other talents he is arguably on of the most valuable footballers ever; he will get you goals.
- but Cristiano Ronaldos overall level of play, (passing, crossing, playmaking, vision, aniticaption, running of a game, influence [on the whole games progression not the scoreline], reading, understanding, intelligence) and his overall ability (touch, control, passing, dribbling) is quite possibly THE most overrated thing in football atm.* I will never be made to feel like an idiot for saying that, because i know I'm right.
We seem to assume that because he excels in a few (key) areas, he is amazing at everything; or that because he's called the 2nd greatest that that means he's actually 'the best' at things.
He's a great player, and im not trying to say he isnt. im not trying to say that his passing, dribbling, control etc is really bad- its not. but these qualities of his are still really, reeeeally overrated.
Yannick03
New member
Messi, Pele, Maradona, Cruijff, Best, Beckenbauer, Zico, Di Stefano, Puskas, Baggio, Ronaldo, Garrincha, Platini, Zidane, Van Basten, Laudrup, Eusebio, Maldini, Charlton, Gento
I stopped at 20 but I didn't even include players like Bartresi, Ronaldinho, Socrates, Matthaus, Jairzinho, Stoichkov, Gullit and many others...
Do you honestly believe C. Ronaldo belongs in this list cause I really don't...
Cule4life
The Culest
Bartresi? Ease on the Bartra love mate
Yugi
Active member
Yannick03
New member
jamrock
Senior Member
if the likes of baggio and zidane make the top 20 then so does Ronaldo, he may not have been anywhere near as naturally talented but his level of consistency is truly legendary and of the second list only dinho is better than him and maybe Matthaus.
Most of the other days are their just based on word off mouth, if we are making a talent top 100, Ronaldo wouldn't make it, but greatest is about more than talent, and even though I do rate him, he has almost everything else down.
the list goes out the door anyways when their is no xavi/iniesta but a zidane anyways
Most of the other days are their just based on word off mouth, if we are making a talent top 100, Ronaldo wouldn't make it, but greatest is about more than talent, and even though I do rate him, he has almost everything else down.
the list goes out the door anyways when their is no xavi/iniesta but a zidane anyways
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Luftstalag14
Culé de Celestial Empire
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