Ernesto Valverde - V1

[JamDav1982]

He is as defense first as a coach for Barcelona could be. That much is clear.

Now try to stay on topic and respond to my argument.

No need to derail the thread again.

Barca are up there as one of top attacking and possession based teams going.

What he is prepared to do is take foot off gas. Sit a bit deeper when have a lead and with players he has can see why but Barca are not playing defensively and he will never resort to some of the Mou type antics that he did at Real etc even if most weeks played attacking football.

All you are doing is comparing him to Peps flat out style. Not what Barca normally are.

 

[RMU ReBorn]

For those who compared the achievements of Mou with Ev . Yeap Mou is one of the most successful in Europe . Despite him being a cunt i do holds lot of respect for his achievements . Having said that it's not like EV hasn't done anything significant in his managerial career . Barcelona is the first elite club he is managing . A proper team capable of winning league titles and Cl .In his first season he is on the verge of a domestic double and is still alive in CL . His Espanyol side back in 2006 wasn't pushovers for either Madrid or Barca . They Denied us a title in Camp Nou on last day that season . EV's Espanyol went on to play Europa final losing to Sevilla one of the best clubs in the competitions history . In his stint at Bilbao he managed to finish in top 7 every season , reached CDR final and ended their trophy drought after decades . What's the position of Bilbao this season ? 14th , 15th , 13th ? .With Basque talents he has done wonders with that side . Not saying that he achieved more than Mou,but he has done a commendable job in those clubs he managed

Mou is the same guy who parked the bus against a struggling Sevilla side in Old trafford with players like Matic , Pogba , Sanches , Lukaku and young talents like Rashford , Martial Ev's Bilbao played much direct and attacking football than Mou's current Man united

 

[Ousmane Dembélé]

Barca are up there as one of top attacking and possession based teams going.

What he is prepared to do is take foot off gas. Sit a bit deeper when have a lead and with players he has can see why but Barca are not playing defensively and he will never resort to some of the Mou type antics that he did at Real etc even if most weeks played attacking football.

Of course we're up there as one of the top attacking and possession teams in Europe. That has been our philosophy for a long time now and every coach that has come in has maintained that to some degree since it's the best system for the players we have.

There are ways to take your foot off the gas efficiently. The best would be to keep the ball, move it around and prevent the other team from getting it and starting possible attacks. The best form of defense is to keep the ball, lower the tempo and allow players to rest. That's not what we've seen with Valverde. Too many times this season we allow the opposing team to have the ball and are happy to sit in behind and soak up the pressure. The problem with this system is we're not nearly as good at defending without the ball for long stretches as a team like Atleti per se. Teams are able to create scoring chances and we've had to be bailed out by a last ditch tackle or save many times this season.

We still have tons of possession but the margin between us and the opposing team has been very slim at times this season.

There is no way for any coach to turn Barca into a truly defensive team with the players and philosophy we have, but we're a lot closer to that than we've been for a long time this year.

 

[MessiCam]

You don't need to play in midfield to dictate everything . Isco runs the show in spain . Now it's clear that you are the one who hasn't followed
spain enough to understand the basics

No need to do anything up . Ev has done everything right to feel good about him . Barcelona has played attacking football under him . That's how Barca used to play even before the messiah Pep arrived . And that's how it should be with the squad available . It will bring results ,just need to stay patient

Look... Isco is not the Spain engine. Iniesta and Thiago see way more of the ball than him. Go and watch some Spain games and then come back to me.

And yes, Barcelona do attack under Valverde but it’s attacks based on transitions and not so much about breaking the opposition down. Our possession is some 2 percentage points down. Our shots per game is down too.

And no, Barcelona didn’t play like this prior to Pep’s arrival. For the most part we’ve played a brand of very attacking football with some difficulties in between... The period after van Gaal’s first tenure all the way through his second tenure springs to mind. Then Rijkaard came and started cleaning house.

So in the last 30 years I can count about 3 years of drab football...

You can be patient all you want but this is how Valverde sets his teams up. He is not suddenly going to become this attacking manager.

 

[JamDav1982]

Of course we're up there as one of the top attacking and possession teams in Europe. That has been our philosophy for a long time now and every coach that has come in has maintained that to some degree since it's the best system for the players we have.

There are ways to take your foot off the gas efficiently. The best would be to keep the ball, move it around and prevent the other team from getting it and starting possible attacks. The best form of defense is to keep the ball, lower the tempo and allow players to rest. That's not what we've seen with Valverde. Too many times this season we allow the opposing team to have the ball and are happy to sit in behind and soak up the pressure. The problem with this system is we're not nearly as good at defending without the ball for long stretches as a team like Atleti per se. Teams are able to create scoring chances and we've had to be bailed out by a last ditch tackle or save many times this season.

We still have tons of possession but the margin between us and the opposing team has been very slim at times this season.

There is no way for any coach to turn Barca into a truly defensive team with the players and philosophy we have, but we're a lot closer to that than we've been for a long time this year.

Lucho won the treble for Barca by sitting deeper when Barca were ahead and hitting teams on the break.

Like it or not the best teams in the CL have been those that are prepared to do that.

Hardly any of the top teams want to keep the ball at all times just to defend and rest. Pep rarely does even. They play full throttle for most 90 mins.

Barca decided to defend with ball away to Chelsea and away to Juve and folk went fucking mental about not creating much and getting caught on break.

Football has changed, top teams have reacted to pure possession teams like Peps and are better prepared to hit on break.

 

[RMU ReBorn]

Look... Isco is not the Spain engine. Iniesta and Thiago see way more of the ball than him. Go and watch some Spain games and then come back to me.

And yes, Barcelona do attack under Valverde but it’s attacks based on transitions and not so much about breaking the opposition down. Our possession is some 2 percentage points down. Our shots per game is down too.

And no, Barcelona didn’t play like this prior to Pep’s arrival. For the most part we’ve played a brand of very attacking football with some difficulties in between... The period after van Gaal’s first tenure all the way through his second tenure springs to mind. Then Rijkaard came and started cleaning house.

So in the last 30 years I can count about 3 years of drab football...

You can be patient all you want but this is how Valverde sets his teams up. He is not suddenly going to become this attacking manager.

He is already an attacking manager . Nobody is waiting for him to be the attacking manager just because MessiCam thinks he isn't attacking . Stats are infront of you . Ev's Barca has demolished all the top sides they faced in Cl and league . Atleti match was an exception which we had to play two days after Las palmas match .

I do watch spain matches a lot and Isco does run the show there along with Thiago and Iniesta. Check the formation of 2012 Euro winning team and 2010 team and tell me whether Iniesta was a winger or a midfielder . 'Isco is a winger ' logic will become laughable for you if you understands how the system works in spain

 

[Stoichkov1]

Of course we're up there as one of the top attacking and possession teams in Europe. That has been our philosophy for a long time now and every coach that has come in has maintained that to some degree since it's the best system for the players we have.

There are ways to take your foot off the gas efficiently. The best would be to keep the ball, move it around and prevent the other team from getting it and starting possible attacks. The best form of defense is to keep the ball, lower the tempo and allow players to rest. That's not what we've seen with Valverde. Too many times this season we allow the opposing team to have the ball and are happy to sit in behind and soak up the pressure. The problem with this system is we're not nearly as good at defending without the ball for long stretches as a team like Atleti per se. Teams are able to create scoring chances and we've had to be bailed out by a last ditch tackle or save many times this season.

We still have tons of possession but the margin between us and the opposing team has been very slim at times this season.

There is no way for any coach to turn Barca into a truly defensive team with the players and philosophy we have, but we're a lot closer to that than we've been for a long time this year.

City defends with the ball and in fact they conceded 6 goals against Liverpool and United.

 

[JamDav1982]

City defends with the ball and in fact they conceded 6 goals against Liverpool and United.

City dont really defend with the ball as much as try to constantly attack with it.

Their idea of defending is to press like fuck and win ball early. If they dont win ball they foul. Do it all the time little fouls to stop teams breaking.

Basically their idea is more they have ball less opposition have it but rarely if ever they will pass ball for sake of it just to keep it away from opposition.

 

[Ousmane Dembélé]

Lucho won the treble for Barca by sitting deeper when Barca were ahead and hitting teams on the break.

Like it or not the best teams in the CL have been those that are prepared to do that.

Hardly any of the top teams want to keep the ball at all times just to defend and rest. Pep rarely does even. They play full throttle for most 90 mins.

Barca decided to defend with ball away to Chelsea and away to Juve and folk went fucking mental about not creating much and getting caught on break.

Football has changed, top teams have reacted to pure possession teams like Peps and are better prepared to hit on break.

When we won the treble with Lucho our team was one of the if not the best counter attacking side in Europe. It made sense to sit back a little bit more knowing our counter was deadly. We had that cutting edge in attack with MSN at their absolute peak and our midfield was still mobile and athletic enough to not get overrun when the other team put men forward.

Fast forward to 2018 and out counter attack is in the worst shape in been in years and teams are able to overwhelm even our four man midfield when they commit numbers in attack. Sitting deep is a good option when you've got a competent midfield and have a solid counter attack. We have neither. Not to mention most of our players are past their physical peak so we aren't able to press efficiently anymore either. Our best option is to keep the ball as long as possible when we do get it and try and create something through Messi, Iniesta or Alba.

 

[JamDav1982]

When we won the treble with Lucho our team was one of the if not the best counter attacking side in Europe. It made sense to sit back a little bit more knowing our counter was deadly. We had that cutting edge in attack with MSN at their absolute peak and our midfield was still mobile and athletic enough to not get overrun when the other team put men forward.

Fast forward to 2018 and out counter attack is in the worst shape in been in years and teams are able to overwhelm even our four man midfield when they commit numbers in attack. Sitting deep is a good option when you've got a competent midfield and have a solid counter attack. We have neither. Not to mention most of our players are past their physical peak so we aren't able to press efficiently anymore either. Our best option is to keep the ball as long as possible when we do get it and try and create something through Messi, Iniesta or Alba.

Obviously not as good on the counter now but still more likely to win than constant possession for the sake of it.

Point is the best Barca and best sides in the world are adaptable. Can play with ball and can sit deep. They dont constantly try to play one way.

The basis of Barca is still a very strong attacking side and prepared to be flexible.

You talk about midfielf being overwhelmed but that midfield would be even more exposed playing higher up park and with ball more as was away to Chelsea and as was in CL last season.

The Barca mid is just not that great at moment and is older and slower than most others.

 

[Stoichkov1]

City dont really defend with the ball as much as try to constantly attack with it.

Their idea of defending is to press like fuck and win ball early. If they dont win ball they foul. Do it all the time little fouls to stop teams breaking.

Basically their idea is more they have ball less opposition have it but rarely if ever they will pass ball for sake of it just to keep it away from opposition.

Yes and that's Pep's idea. City are more direct than his Barcelona or Bayern teams but the idea is still the same, have the ball as much as possible so that the opponents can't score.

Football has evolved and in 2018 this is ineffective against top teams, you have to defend with players behind the ball.

Real who for me is the best team in the world don't press like crazy if they lose the ball.

 

[serghei]

City's back 3 is nowhere near Alves - Pique - Puyol/Mascherano - Abidal quality. It's miles off hence their problems.

 

[Cule4life]

City's back 3 is nowhere near Alves - Pique - Puyol/Mascherano - Abidal quality. It's miles off hence their problems.

Even against United none of the goals were due to attacking too much and pushing high up and getting countered. Just the backline not marking/tracking runs properly.

 

[Joan]

Our best option is to keep the ball as long as possible when we do get it and try and create something through Messi, Iniesta or Alba.

Didn't we try to do this last season? Didn't end well.

Busquets and Rakitić, who form our midfield when the double pivot is used, are slow, but intelligent and technical and will keep control of the game if given enough space.
Similar systems are usually supported by an endurable player able to run which we don't have. In order to stay relevant, we let our pivots operate deeper so we are not as prone to counters as we used to be. It's not the case only when we are down and must attack.

This approach affects our attacking output. The midfield should carry the ball forward but since Rakitić and Busquets don't go too high (usually) it's all up to Messi and Iniesta (not counting the FBs who do it often). That's why most of our attacks go through him. That's a solid plan. But I'd also like us to be more versatile going forward.

I'd like to say that when Roberto is employed as a RM Raki and Busq are partly freed of their duties and can advance forward. For instance, Rakitić ran the show vs. Roma.

It appears that we are not strong defensively when we truly are but will never defend like Atletico does, different teams, different strategies.

e: wanna note that I'm not saying that duo is playing too deep and that they often go forward, but this is what I think the original plan is, if everything is right

And yes, Barcelona do attack under Valverde but it’s attacks based on transitions and not so much about breaking the opposition down. Our possession is some 2 percentage points down. Our shots per game is down too.

You can be patient all you want but this is how Valverde sets his teams up. He is not suddenly going to become this attacking manager.

This is pretty much true, I agree up to a point. Safer approach is what defines Valverde as a manager. He won't be much more attacking than this.
But I really doubt this is the best Barca can do/produce. Integrating Coutinho, Dembele next season some things will have to change. These two being more direct players. I hope he'll find a way to expand our attacking options and plan more actions.

 

[JamDav1982]

City's back 3 is nowhere near Alves - Pique - Puyol/Mascherano - Abidal quality. It's miles off hence their problems.

That is on Pep not adapting to protect that defence a bit more then.

At Bayern he had some of the best defenders in the world and still got pumped by Barca and Real.

He had a better defence at Barca but also teams have evolved since 2011.

That Barca team changed football. Teams copied it and became more wise about how to counter it and all against poorer versions of it.