Galning
Moderator
Exactly. He should've said that we are doomed without a new CB and that we shouldn't even bother playing.
Gerardo "Tata" Martino
- Thread starter Faceless
- Start date
Exactly. He should've said that we are doomed without a new CB and that we shouldn't even bother playing.
There were 3 Sevilla players at the edge and only 2 Barca players marking. I have no idea what was going on there.
Poor_Sunyol
In Lucho we trust!
For me the jury is still out on Tata, especially as we are so early into the season. I haven’t been impressed at all so far though. The last match was a classic example of why, in my view, we are going backwards. Barca is Tiki-Taka or at least it has been since Cruyff (1988). Our success has been all down to that style of play and although I can see why we need to change to a plan B when required it is nonsensical to adopt another style. Why? Most of our team are from La Masia. They have spent their whole footballing education learning and perfecting it, it would be criminal to move away from it. Secondly this is the style that has given us all our success in recent years and strikes fear into the opposition. Teams know that they have to change their tactics when they face us as they are not going to see the ball for long periods of the game.
Tata’s new ‘vertical’ style is all well and good but it does not suit Barca because of the players we have in the team.
Our style of play in recent years has been to play a high line in defence (often with only 2 CB’s back) with the full backs playing high up the pitch to stretch the opposition. When we lose the ball we aim to win the ball back within 7 seconds so that when we do win the ball we are winning the ball in the opposition half, making us closer to their goal. This system only works when you have a lot of possession. When we have the ball for long periods it forces the opposition to have all their players back in their half, giving them no outlet to counter attack or to pass forward when they finally get possession of the ball. This means that we can win the ball back quickly.
When we don’t play with a lot of possession and play more vertically, we don’t strangle the opposition. This means that when we lose the ball the opposition are not all camped in their half and they have several outlets, making us much more susceptible to the counter attack. Coupled with that is that vertical football is a much lower percentage game, so the likelihood of losing possession is much higher.
If we played with 4 traditional defenders then the vertical game would be fine (although we would now be playing like a Mourinho team) but the fact is we don’t have defenders that will stop at the halfway line for the fear of getting a nose bleed.
The problem we are having with Tata is that we slip between two stools at the moment. We are trying to play both styles simultaneously and that, in my view, is doomed to failure. We need to stick to what we know and go back to implementing it with passion and energy. It is funny to note that whist we are looking to play more vertically, Madrid are looking to play more possession football. We can see both Messi and Ronaldo struggling with that as neither suits their style of play.
P.S. On a side note I see that the knives are out for Pique again on here. If you take into consideration what I have said above, do you think another CB will make a difference if we don’t change our style of play? And would you like to see Barca go against its principles and play a more vertical game to accommodate another CB?
I know where I sit on this issue.
So far Tata gets a 6/10.
Tata’s new ‘vertical’ style is all well and good but it does not suit Barca because of the players we have in the team.
Our style of play in recent years has been to play a high line in defence (often with only 2 CB’s back) with the full backs playing high up the pitch to stretch the opposition. When we lose the ball we aim to win the ball back within 7 seconds so that when we do win the ball we are winning the ball in the opposition half, making us closer to their goal. This system only works when you have a lot of possession. When we have the ball for long periods it forces the opposition to have all their players back in their half, giving them no outlet to counter attack or to pass forward when they finally get possession of the ball. This means that we can win the ball back quickly.
When we don’t play with a lot of possession and play more vertically, we don’t strangle the opposition. This means that when we lose the ball the opposition are not all camped in their half and they have several outlets, making us much more susceptible to the counter attack. Coupled with that is that vertical football is a much lower percentage game, so the likelihood of losing possession is much higher.
If we played with 4 traditional defenders then the vertical game would be fine (although we would now be playing like a Mourinho team) but the fact is we don’t have defenders that will stop at the halfway line for the fear of getting a nose bleed.
The problem we are having with Tata is that we slip between two stools at the moment. We are trying to play both styles simultaneously and that, in my view, is doomed to failure. We need to stick to what we know and go back to implementing it with passion and energy. It is funny to note that whist we are looking to play more vertically, Madrid are looking to play more possession football. We can see both Messi and Ronaldo struggling with that as neither suits their style of play.
P.S. On a side note I see that the knives are out for Pique again on here. If you take into consideration what I have said above, do you think another CB will make a difference if we don’t change our style of play? And would you like to see Barca go against its principles and play a more vertical game to accommodate another CB?
I know where I sit on this issue.
So far Tata gets a 6/10.
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BigBarcaBoy
Active member
I think you're being very harsh at the moment, the changes Tata is making are very subtle at the moment, deing vulnerable to counter attacks hasn't happened this season, it's been like that for a while now.
Poor_Sunyol
In Lucho we trust!
It may be harsh and too early to criticise but those are my thoughts. I am not saying we should get rid of him and it will take time for him to implement his ideas. However, we have been very poor tactically in all our games so far. And I disagree with what you are suggesting. We are clearly more open to counter attacks this season and look very vulnerable in defending as a team. You just have to look at the stats (check out the corner count first!).
jamrock
Senior Member
the people who are hating on pique don't have a proper understanding of the game, for our defense to improve we either need to go to full on effective possession ( keeping the ball as much as possible in the oppositions final 3rd) and proper pressing, both of which we haven't done in about two years
or we play a more traditional game, so double pivot and a more defensive FB, do that our defensive improves immediately, but that would be going against everything we stand for
tata so far is ok, six out of 10 is about right, he hasn't been the tactic master planner I thought he would be.
Poor_Sunyol
In Lucho we trust!
So you agree in what I said. Glad to see that there are still some people with half a brain on here after all.
jamrock
Senior Member
same here
Poor_Sunyol
In Lucho we trust!
As you pointed out, since Pep, we haven't pressed like we used to in midfield which kills us in defence. In the last few years I put that down to Pep leaving and Tito's absence but it actually could be that the boys just don't have the legs for it anymore. Xavi is not getting any younger and he simply can't do the work that he used to. I am not putting this all onto Xavi though. Perhaps moving Busquets into a more advanced role and playing Song as DM may be a short term solution? Use Xavi less but keep him fresh for the more important matches?
Alba and Alves, for me, shouldn't be used at the same time either. Neither of them will not take every opportunity to attack and I think that is also one of the main reasons we get so exposed.
Alba and Alves, for me, shouldn't be used at the same time either. Neither of them will not take every opportunity to attack and I think that is also one of the main reasons we get so exposed.
jamrock
Senior Member
we are thinking along the very same lines, as you said not putting it on xavi, but we cant press like mad men with him in the team especially if he I starting every game, pushing busquets up will help, but we then lose in calming influence at the bottom of the midfield, I was thinking we sell song( nothing against him) and get a player as close to sergi as possible to put at the DM position. then we rotate as much as possible, xavi should start against all the teams in the top six and come on when we are struggling even at half time in those games when they arise, but he shouldn't be starting almost week in week in, he doesn't have the legs for it.
I have been saying for a while now, we can play with alba and alves, and I would have sold alves this summer. though I love him so much and give Montoya a chance to make the position his own, to bring back some balance in the defense, as with both we are hopelessly exposed, even T.Silva would struggle if he game here to play under these circumstances, especially given the high line we play with.
its either the above are we go fully vertical and play with two pivots but even then we would still have to sell off one alves or alba, teams just cant play with two attacking fullbacks unless they play a perfect game all the time
Poor_Sunyol
In Lucho we trust!
When Puyi comes back we can push Mascherano back into the DM? We still do need another CB but I agree with the club with not just paying through the nose for a CB if it is not the right one. When you think about it, we have spent a lot on CB's in recent times but none of them have looked anything apart from awful because of the way we play.
A midfield of:
-----Masch-----
Sergi----Iniesta/Xavi
Looks pretty solid for CL away games at least.
A midfield of:
-----Masch-----
Sergi----Iniesta/Xavi
Looks pretty solid for CL away games at least.
For sure it's because players are slowing down. Barca is slower at nearly every position than they were in their prime around 2010, except for Alba and Neymar. Even the relatively young Messi, Busquets, and Pique are slower, because of overuse, I would say. Slow in speed, quickness, with the ball, and without, covering range, everything. That's why teams get through their initial press so much easier then they used to.
Pressing is not just about stamina. It's about covering space, and Barca players don't cover as much as they could. A pass that Xavi could intercept with one lunge a few years ago he can't get to today. It's also about 1 on 1 defending. Xavi and Iniesta were lethal 1 on 1 before - today, they get beaten. So they need extra support, which means less players to cover the passing lanes, and the press is weak.
The adjustment of course is to press smarter, and this is the one thing I have not seen Tata able to implement so far, but I think it may take months. Smarter means better choices of when to press and when not to press. For the past year, Barca have been swarming the ball mindlessly, gambling too much. Once the ball goes past, they're in trouble. They should more systematically close the channels then attack.
The other factor in successful pressing that is often overlooked is potency in attack. Last year, good teams had no fear that Barca would score quickly on them. They knew that as long they were solid defensively, Barca would pass the ball around but not score. So there was no panic when they got the ball and launched their counterattacks. The last match was a good example. Sevilla had belief to the last and carefully launched counterattack after counterattack. A potent attack would cause panic which would help the pressing regain the ball.
Everything is linked with everything.
We played 2 games against Atletico, away to Malaga and Valencia and a home game against Sevilla. What did you expect? Did you really think these games were going to be easy? These are good teams and the games were always going to be tough.
Looking at what we did in the past also isn't completely obvious because teams have adjusted their tactics. We pressed high to win the ball, but now the opposition are happy for us to have the ball. They park the bus, even if we win the ball high the bus is still there. Then they wait and hope for one or two opportunities to counter and try to squeeze a 1-0 victory. Tata is trying to use more varied tactics but it is going to take time. When you make changes issues arise and it takes time to iron them out. We'll have to see how Tata copes through the season. But I expect with the next few games being easier you're going to see some strong performances and everyone being happier again.
Looking at what we did in the past also isn't completely obvious because teams have adjusted their tactics. We pressed high to win the ball, but now the opposition are happy for us to have the ball. They park the bus, even if we win the ball high the bus is still there. Then they wait and hope for one or two opportunities to counter and try to squeeze a 1-0 victory. Tata is trying to use more varied tactics but it is going to take time. When you make changes issues arise and it takes time to iron them out. We'll have to see how Tata copes through the season. But I expect with the next few games being easier you're going to see some strong performances and everyone being happier again.
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