MTL_Barca
Well-known member
Why should we need ONLY ONE scapegoat?
It doesn't have to be only Rakitic.
Or EV.
Reasons are more likely:
1. EV
2. Barto
3. Raki
4. core players are old
5. core players are not motivated
6. old players can't run anymore
7. old players and Messi are not moving that much off the ball
8. our team in general is very slow
9. 433
I don't agree with people who think that we will fly without EV or without Raki.
We will be better, surely.
But we have millions of problems.
Regarding 433, I have some feeling and it makes me want to bang my head on the wall, when people act as if it a Godlike formation.
And everything in the world and regarding Barca can change, but 433 should never change.
Since, according to fans, especially guys in early 20s who grew up with Pep and his Barca=that 433 is the only way to go, and the way how Pep played is the only way to go.
Since I am a little older and I grew up in early 90s, this is how winning formations changed over time:
late 80s/early 90s:
Mexico 86 final:
Argentina: 352
Germany: 352
Euro 88:
Netherlands: 442 flat
Russia: 442 flat
Italy 90 final:
Germany: 352
Argentina: 352
Euro 92 final:
Denmark: 352 with Cam
Germany: 352 with Cam
Usa 94 final:
Brasil: 442 or 4222
Italy: 442 flat
Euro 96:
Germany: 352
Czech: 3331
France 98:
France: 4321 Christmas tree
Brasil: 4222
Euro 2000:
France: 4231
Italy: 352
Japan 2002:
Brasil: 352 with Cam
Germany: 352 with Cam
Euro 2004:
Greece: 433
Portugal: 4231
World Cup 2006:
Italy: 442
France: 4231
Euro 2008:
Spain: 451
Germany: 4231
World cup 2010:
Spain: 433
Netherlands: 4231
Euro 2012:
Spain: 433
Italy: 442
World Cup 2014:
Germany: 4231
Argentina: 442
Euro 2016:
Portugal: 442
France: 442
World Cup 2018:
France: 4231
Croatia: 4231
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Now, let's look by formations, how many times they were played over years:
442 flat:
1988 Netherlands
1988 Russia
1994 Italy
2006 Italy
2012 Italy
2014 Argentina
2016 Portugal
2016 France
352:
1986 Argentina
1986 Germany
1990 Germany
1990 Argentina
1992 Denmark
1992 Germany
1996 Germany
2000 Italy
2002 Brasil
2002 Germany
4231:
2000 France
2004 Portugal
2006 France
2008 Germany
2010 Netherlands
2014 Germany
2018 France
2018 Croatia
433:
2004 Greece
2008 Spain, more or less
2010 Spain
2012 Spain
Now, look at what I am trying to say: in different eras, DIFFERENT formations and styles are the winning ones.
I remember in 90s, when everyone played 352, then suddenly 442 became "a killer" of 352 because you had 2+2 players on flanks vs 1+1 wing backs in 352.
And 442 started to kill 352.
Teams with 352 tried to keep the ball and possession, but whenever they would lose the ball, teams with 442 would kill them on wings.
And once when this was figured out, there was NO WAY BACK. 352 was dead.
From 1986-2002, 10 finalists played with 352.
Since 2002, in the next 16 years, no finalists played 352 again.
It was abandoned till 2-3 years ago...
Why has it returned? Well, because everything 352 today has some virtues to kill current 433 and 4231.
So:
1. everyone played 352
2. then teams with 442 started to kill teams with 352 due to 2+2 wingers and advantage on wings and counters.
3. but then again, teams wanted MORE man in midfield to win a battle against 442 (2 midfielders), and yet to have 2+2 wingers.
So, the next move in the evolution was: sacrifice 1 attacker and create 442+extra midfielder, which turned into 451 (4231) and 433.
4. and then around 2000, teams started to play with only 1 Fc (France was the first).
Imo, 433 and 4231 are sister formations. Except that 433 is more based on possession, while 4231 is more about direct and faster football from French and German NT.
Now, that thing which bothers me with our fans and people on this forum, who constantly say: 433 is fine (and more or less: 433 will be fine even in 200 years, since it is the best formation ever).
Then I would like to ask you a few question:
1. why has 352 died after 90s and wasn't sued after 2002'
Once it was a GOAT formation, and then it totally died and became extremely weak and easy to neutralize.
People on this forum would reply: it is not about formations, it is about HOW YOU MOVE...
Lol.
But movement didn't help to 352 after 2000's.
No matter how good players you had or how well you moved, it was dead and everyone knew the trick to win against it.
I have made similar analogies with 433 lots of times here and asked: don't you think that it is possible that opponents figured out 433 over time?
A reply is always the same (and makes me want to bang my head into a wall): No. 433 is fine. Everything is fine. We just don't move or press like we used to.
So, basically, 10s of formations and tactics which were GOAT in one moment in history, turned to shit later and teams have abandoned it.
Yet, that can never happen to a 433
That formation/style=can't be figured out, you can't defend against it, AS LONG AS you execute it perfectly.
Again, 352 was the same GOAT formation in 80s and 90s.
And then turned into a joke.
442 was awesome for a few years in late 90s (Man Utd) and in early 00s since it was a deadly cure against 352s.
But then 4231 and 433s kicked ass out of 442 (Like Barca:Man Utd finals) since 442 always had a men less in midfield and TikiTaka looked like fun against 2 CMs from 442.
But then, when teams switched from 442 to 4231 and 433, then a 3-men TikiTaka wasn't as effective as against 442.
But people will simplify it and say: no. We just run less and don't press like we used to. Lol.
In short, for the end:
1. teams and football evolve all the time
2. what looks like a GOAT tactics in one moment, may be a total shit 5 or 10 years later
3. no formation ever managed to survive the evolution of their opponents. So, 433 won't be the first either.
4. also, I don't agree with that part: it is about HOW you move.
Anyway, people will get offended with my post.
Because, for majority, the idea of Barca is: do everything you can to copy EXACTLY the same how Pep played.
Let's try to find new Xavi and new Iniesta.
For me, it is: let's try to find what works perfectly in this moment, in 2019. Since it is not 2009 anymore.
Also, about movement, there is no way that Croatia would be able to play this way in 433.
Midfielders are just too deep in 433.
In 4231, with CAM; you have an extra men around the box.
That's just an extra man around the box.
Also, there is a tendency in 433 lately to turn one winger in a silent striker, as the next step in the evolution.
Why?
Again: the goal is to get a new advantage, the "12th player" against your opponent.
In 433, you have 2 wingers and 1 Cf. Only 1 man in the box or around the box.
If you turn one winger into a hybrid of a winger&CF, you get, to some extent: 434 with: winger-Cf-Cf-winger around the box.
Real Madrid won 4 CLs with 2 men in the box with CR7 (hybrid of a winger&CF) and CF Benzema.
France won a World cup with: CF Giroud, winger Mbappe and hybrid Griezmann (CF&winger&silent striker).
None of those teams had 2 pure wingers and 1 attack.
So, I would say that 1 winger, 1 CF and 1 hybrid is the next level in 4231 and in 433.
So, again, my point is that teams are evolving all the time and they are trying to find new tricks to gain the advantage on a field with the 12th player.
Yet, here, (just look at replies to this post later, lol), people will reply like brainwashed: no. 433 is fine. It is perfect when executed perfectly, lol.
They don't want to listen about 4231, about hybrid attacker in 433 and 4231 etc.
They'll reply: we just need a carbon copy of Xavi and Iniesta, and everything will be fine. The time and evolution doesn't exist on planet Barca.
Idk how i sparked that reaction but ok.
Anyway, i think formations are often overrated especially looking forward at least in the "you have to play this or that" way. It's just a number, what's really important is how it's played but that can't be seen on numbers and a lot of coaches agree with that. Klopp, Pep and Valverde all often/mostly used a 433 last season, just compare how the teams played, it really doesn't say much.
That doesn't mean it always has to be 433 but you put it at #9 and tbh if you fix the real problems the formation just isn't one anymore.
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