Lionel Messi - v7

BBZ8800

Senior Member
I am amazed how football fans can follow the sport for years and years and years and yet never learn not to have knee-jerk reactions. Talking about any player after a preseason game after a week of training as 'a lost cause' is hilarious.

Messi is a tactical mess for 6-7 years.
In the past he had magic to compensate for it.

Now you have a former Goat who is today statpading against smaller teams and from free kicks.
In big matches he is almost a non factor.
Except being a tactical mess.
He is still impacting matches in that way, helping to opponents.

In this season, this thread will be a fight between guys:
1. who are objective regarding current Messi
2. and fans who can't write bad about Messi due to emotions/his glorious career here

Basically, a fight between reality and people living in delusion/past.

After restart after pandemic, he was barely in top 10-20 footballers in the world with his current displays.
And he will decline massively.
So, whatever he displays today (loss of pace, stamina, dribbles, finishing, defending), it will be way worse with each new month passing by.

That's life and getting old.
 
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Kul_z

Senior Member
:lol: That's like saying your first line of defense being crap has nothing to do with your base being captured. It has everything to do. In modern football, your front line is the first line of defense. As long as that line doesn't exist for us, and is composed of lazy players who walk off the ball and allow the opponent to pressure our midfield in numbers, we will be hammered in CL. It's that simple.

You say we all get the concept of "the whole team defends", and then say Messi and Suarez had nothing to do with the goals conceded :lol:. Have you seen how hard Bayern's forwards work defensively to make sure their midfield doesn't get overrun? Where is that effort in our front line? Shining in its absence.

While i agree that defense is suffering from messi and suarez walking, i dont agree that is the crucial part why we conceded that much. Suarez was/is so slow that there wasnt any threat of him escaping the backline, and that was the main reason why bayern overrun us. Played with high line, with messi marked and isolated as much as they could when we were on the ball. If we had a pacey forward they would fuck all go all out on us. We had vidal, sergi roberto, busquets and de jong in mf. Fucking lol. That would work if we had aubameyang as cf, not suarez.
We are bad, but not that bad.
Busquets in middlefield is a disaster waiting against anyone.
We had no creative player in mf since iniesta.
Imagine putting some high workrate players instead of messi and suarez in that bayern game and expecting a different outcome. Lmao. Our mf and backline was so terrible that davies looked like a man among cadets while slicing through semedo and roberto, with passing lines to muller because busquets is a fucking turtle that cant cover shit anymore.
De jong was lost running like headless chicken trying to cover the cracks vidal and busquets was leaving behind/around them.
Thats 4 players that did their defensive jobs like amateurs, +1 who was lost in all the errors those fuckups were making.

Add to that that thiago had an masterclass performance, davies had a masterclass performance, perisic looked like a world beater lmao. He is good, but semedo helped him to look like that. 1 on 1 defending was terrible.

Put some legs in that middlefield, and some pace upfront with messi and we have a game against anyone.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Messi and Suarez up top have allowed teams to play high line and pressure the poor defence and midfield.

Neither of them run into space or hold up ball and teams are willing to take the risk that that it will benefit them to play that way even if Suarez/Messi have a couple of individual moments that can hurt them.

It hurt Barca in the Bayern game as it did in Liverpool and Rome. It is too easy for teams to play that way and overpower the poor midfield defence with little to come back the other way in comparison to benefits of it.
 

gasgas

Senior Member
Tbf though serghei how many chances did even we have against bayern in the first half? at least 3/4 but only 1 converted. Had we scored them all would you be saying it's down to the high pressing forwards or their defence collapsing/playing a high line. I suspect the latter. John is definitely trying to reach a fair and balanced judgement that; yes Messi and Suarez hamper the defence but also the defence did themselves no favours regardless.

And how many chances did Bayern have against us.

It could have been 15-2 had they gone in as well.
 

Kul_z

Senior Member
Messi and Suarez up top have allowed teams to play high line and pressure the poor defence and midfield.

Neither of them run into space or hold up ball and teams are willing to take the risk that that it will benefit them to play that way even if Suarez/Messi have a couple of individual moments that can hurt them.

It hurt Barca in the Bayern game as it did in Liverpool and Rome. It is too easy for teams to play that way and overpower the poor midfield defence with little to come back the other way in comparison to benefits of it.

Like i said i agree, but if we had someone with pace upfront we would watch a totally different game.

Lets say dembele was match fit and was playing at lw.

Tactically, bayern could play a high defensive line, but dembele would have 4th of july running behind the defense, with suarez/messi in offside positions waiting for dembele to catch up in no time.

That leaves:

Suarez in 20-25m area where he is most dangerous.
Messi on right with space in front of him with only boateng to beat.
Dembele marching most likely close to neuer and probably missing the golden chances.
So, bayern would have problems, and their backline would drop closer to neuer. That leaves walking messi and suarez closer to neuer, while davies has to drop back in his half, because no matter how fast he is, they couldnt leave messi in the 30m area free to recieve the pass.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
Like i said i agree, but if we had someone with pace upfront we would watch a totally different game.

Lets say dembele was match fit and was playing at lw.

Tactically, bayern could play a high defensive line, but dembele would have 4th of july running behind the defense, with suarez/messi in offside positions waiting for dembele to catch up in no time.

That leaves:

Suarez in 20-25m area where he is most dangerous.
Messi on right with space in front of him with only boateng to beat.
Dembele marching most likely close to neuer and probably missing the golden chances.
So, bayern would have problems, and their backline would drop closer to neuer. That leaves walking messi and suarez closer to neuer, while davies has to drop back in his half, because no matter how fast he is, they couldnt leave messi in the 30m area free to recieve the pass.

We would have 1 Dembele, Bayern would have 10 players equal or better to Dembele who can do everything what he can.

So, nothing would change.
That's like saying: if Busi didn't play, we would have won.
We still have 5-10 horrible players, so nothing will change.

One player won't make Messi magical.
 

Rory

Senior Member
I'm more than happy for Messi to go at this point. He's done all he can and I don't think he has much more to give a team like ours that lack the necessary characteristics to get even half of his best out of him. He and we as a club are just so fortunate that less than half his best is still good enough in 80% of matches.

There's some form of future ahead for the club with the younger players we have. Throw in a couple of decent signings like Haaland, Upamecano and some fullbacks and we'll be back amongst the top teams.
 

snowy

Well-known member
We would have 1 Dembele, Bayern would have 10 players equal or better to Dembele who can do everything what he can.

So, nothing would change.
That's like saying: if Busi didn't play, we would have won.
We still have 5-10 horrible players, so nothing will change.

One player won't make Messi magical.

Give Quarterback Mess one speedy receiver and he'd precision serve monster mash potato at the mess hall 9 out of 10. Guaranteed.

And cap Sinbad always magic, even on bad bad bad dayz :pirate: Witness his Casper Act in the fog at the Estadio de la Luz :brevet:
 

MagIX

Senior Member
I am amazed how football fans can follow the sport for years and years and years and yet never learn not to have knee-jerk reactions. Talking about any player after a preseason game after a week of training as 'a lost cause' is hilarious.

and thinking that Messi is a problem for barca for 6-7 years (since 2014) :lol: During this time we won a CL and several liga.... as if it's worth nothing, as if it were normal and logic to win CL and Liga every year, if we not win the triplete each year (=season is a total failure) Messi is the reason of our failure because he creates tactical problem: without him we would have won the triplete.
He won the golden ball despite the humiliating 4-0 last year, because he had a fantastic season and people saw that the problem is MUCH DEEPER than having Messi on the pitch....
We got trashed by PSG, Bayern, Juve,.... but even with Iniesta and Xavi (Messi injured) 2012/13 we lost 7-0 vs Bayern... we have problems for years and years and years when we do not play at home (in CL), and that's not because we have Messi on the pitch. The problem is much deeper.

Said that, yes Messi is 33, he's declining, for sure not the same, but it's not an old piece of junk we forgot to scrap for years.
I hope that he won't play every games this season, that Koeman will leave him on the bench even in big matches because, step by step, we have to rebuild the team.
 

te amo barca

Blaugrana al vent
Messi's central positining has been a problem since January 2016. That was when he decided to stroll in the middle for some reason.
 

JohnN

Senior Member
:lol: That's like saying your first line of defense being crap has nothing to do with your base being captured. It has everything to do. In modern football, your front line is the first line of defense. As long as that line doesn't exist for us, and is composed of lazy players who walk off the ball and allow the opponent to pressure our midfield in numbers, we will be hammered in CL. It's that simple.

You say we all get the concept of "the whole team defends", and then say Messi and Suarez had nothing to do with the goals conceded :lol:. Have you seen how hard Bayern's forwards work defensively to make sure their midfield doesn't get overrun? Where is that effort in our front line? Shining in its absence.

I say they had nothing to do because the didn't.
I am not speaking theoretically. Check out the goals. Literally 4 defensive mistakes without pressure.
In theory yes, the defense does take more pressure without forwards contributing much. Our forwards should so much more work. Just don't put blame where there isn't..
 

soul24rage

Senior Member
Messi's central positining has been a problem since January 2016. That was when he decided to stroll in the middle for some reason.

I had no problem with Messi drifitng to the center when we had Alves who could dominate the right wing. But ever since Alves left, Messi leaving the wing has been one of the main problems and we should have tried to change the tactics as soon as Alves left (like moving to a 4-2-3-1 with Messi as the CAM).
 

Kul_z

Senior Member
We would have 1 Dembele, Bayern would have 10 players equal or better to Dembele who can do everything what he can.

So, nothing would change.
That's like saying: if Busi didn't play, we would have won.
We still have 5-10 horrible players, so nothing will change.

One player won't make Messi magical.

This wasnt about messi. This was about barca being competitive against bayern. There is no point in 10 dembele's, point is we lacked pace upfront and bayern realised that in time to give us a proper hammering.

No one said that if it wasnt for busquets that we would won, but clearly part of the blame is on him.

All im saying is that IF we had pace upfront that would be a different game.

Game would be wider, there wouldnt be that much pressing on our mf while bayern cb's and fb's would be more worried about defense rather then go marching at will on flanks.

And then, you have messi who is in those kind of situations by far the best there is
 

MagIX

Senior Member
I say they had nothing to do because the didn't.
I am not speaking theoretically. Check out the goals. Literally 4 defensive mistakes without pressure.
In theory yes, the defense does take more pressure without forwards contributing much. Our forwards should so much more work. Just don't put blame where there isn't..

I totally agree.
Hilarious and amateur mistakes from our defence... the 4. goal is something indescribable.
Even if Suarez and Messi ran 30 km we would have lost.
Psychologically there were on the pitch 11 lions vs 11 lambs.
 

serghei

Senior Member
I say they had nothing to do because the didn't.
I am not speaking theoretically. Check out the goals. Literally 4 defensive mistakes without pressure.
In theory yes, the defense does take more pressure without forwards contributing much. Our forwards should so much more work. Just don't put blame where there isn't..

When I speak about the defense, I view it as a series of inter-related actions from all over the field. Many people view our defense as Semedo/Roberto - Pique - Lenglet - Alba. When they say our defense is crap, they mean these 4 players are crap. :lol: There is no such thing as defense in 4 players. If you have a major unbalance in an area, the corresponding areas will have to compensate that, and by doing that they will create gaps in their compartments instead, because they vacate their positions to fix that imbalance.

Here is a standard full action vs Bayern. One of many many such instances.

A) STAGE ONE. Early build-up movements from Bayern and our attempt to counter them. Then Bayern's response to nullify our counter moves.


1. Messi doesn't block Thiago who tries and succeeds to get on the ball and start Bayern's build-up.

1.png


For this reason, De Jong moves up and tries to press Thiago himself. He has the legs to do it. Everybody knows Thiago is the constructor in this Bayern team, he is the one with the passing ability to progress the ball vertically. You block him you have a high chance of causing trouble in Bayern's build-up.

But since nothing is free, as a result of De Jong's move, we lose the compactness in midfield, and we will see Bayern making positional adjustments to exploit this weakness. This would not happen if Messi would at least cover a bit for De Jong (something of a quid pro quo, you press instead of me because you are younger, I cover by altering my position). But he does absolutely nothing at all.

2. Gnabry appears in the hole left behind by De Jong and Busquets. Muller is also sniffing that available space. There is a clear exposure there now.

2.png


Busquets and Roberto adjust positions after De Jong's move (let's not forget Messi's lack of any defensive effort started these permutations). We already see in this image that Gnbary is trying to offer solutions by appearing in the hole behind Busquets. This is Bayern's go-to measure for when the progression through Thiago is not possible. Wide pass, than back in the center to a fast Gnabry who often appears inside to exploit gaps between the lines (such as here).

Robert's position is much more central than his usual spot as a wide player in 4-4-2. This because there is a weakness in the center that he needs to correct. As a result, this gives more freedom to Alphonso Davies, who is left standing in space. We will see that the whole action almost will happen on our right side.

3. De Jong now sees Gnabry posing danger, and rushes back, reoccupying his normal position.

4.png


But, now, after De Jong goes and plugs the gap that Gnabry was attempting to exploit, Thiago reveals himself open once again, because the condition that didn't allow him to create (De Jong's move) has been cleared by Bayern. This makes the whole attempt by De Jong useless. Simply because De Jong can't perform his main role as a midfielder and cover for our forwards walking at the same time. He can't be in two places at once.

4. Gnabry is now blocked (or at least Goretzka is not confident enough to risk a pass to him), but as said above, we are back to where we started, only worse. Thiago is still open now, and even better placed compared with the incipient phase of the action.


5.png


Here Suarez and/or Messi have to respect the work of De Jong, and block Thiago at least now. Again, the main threat in Bayern's build-up scheme is Thiago. And neither Messi or Suarez do anything to block him. Suarez can easily do it by standing between Goretzka and Thiago here. Just a couple of steps into the pass path, and Goretzna will not risk it and will play wide to Kimmich. Which is much much better option for us, as a defending team. Messi can do it as well by moving in his direction.

5. And now the final picture of this stage of Bayern's goal action. Thiago free to advance on the ball.

6.png


He is on the ball, without a worry in the world, thinking his next pass without any pressure on him. In short, our plan to compensate for the non-existent defensive coverage of our forwards was easily defused by Bayern. EASILY, nothing too fancy.

Let's recap where we are at this point. Messi makes no move on Thiago, determining De Jong to leave his position exposed and do it himself, since stopping attacks in early phase should be priority no1 (and blocking Thiago is the main objective to achieve that end). Gnabry and Muller immediately pose threat central in the space left behind by De Jong and Busi (Roberto going narrow is not nearly enough to deter Bayern lol). De Jong rushes back, Thiago is available again. Messi and Suarez doing nothing.

That's where we are in the action after about 15 seconds. What does it mean? It means the whole pressing attempt initiated by De Jong was destroyed immediately by Suarez, and especially Messi. More to follow until the goal is scored.
 
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