Lionel Messi - v7

Respekt_III

Anti-everything
@ serghei should of expanded it to include our defensive positions in the final 1/3 and the lack of support provided to our back line because of this Eg multiple 1 on 1s with our fullbacks as well as leaving way too much space between the fullbacks and cbs.
 

serghei

Senior Member
@ serghei should of expanded it to include our defensive positions in the final 1/3 and the lack of support provided to our back line because of this Eg multiple 1 on 1s with our fullbacks as well as leaving way too much space between the fullbacks and cbs.

This is the first phase. There are 3 phases. For now, the first failure was in the forward line. Midfield got weakened trying to compensate that, Bayern speculated. We will see the problems in the back-line as well.

But before the action reaches our back-line there are already major problems, with great superiority situations for Bayern in multiple zones. The back-line does not usually make howlers, ruining an otherwise good and proper defensive structure. They make errors because they are put in a terrible place because of prior failures in other compartments. Everything starts with the forward line which doesn't do any defending.

Then we are forever caught in a situation of having to compensate error after error, and vs the big boys, this sort of cycle where you always have to correct things leads to disasters like the 8-2.
 
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KingLeo10

Senior Member
Suarez and Neymar and even Messi (at times like v Bayern SF) used to press pretty hard and pretty often in CL in 14/15.

When they stopped doing that and becoming lazy (as our midfield aged simultaneously), they stopped being the nuclear threat in 16/17 and we started getting embarrassed. Even the most talented forwards need to press in the modern game. Was even true in the Guardiola era with players like Eto'o, Henry, Villa, Pedro (especially), and a younger Messi from time to time.

Even a back 4 of Maldini - Baresi - Costacurta - Tassotti would have conceded 3-4 goals against Bayern with the laziness of our forwards and to an extent, midfield.
 

serghei

Senior Member
Suarez and Neymar and even Messi (at times like v Bayern SF) used to press pretty hard and pretty often in CL in 14/15.

When they stopped doing that and becoming lazy (as our midfield aged simultaneously), they stopped being the nuclear threat in 16/17 and we started getting embarrassed. Even the most talented forwards need to press in the modern game. Was even true in the Guardiola era with players like Eto'o, Henry, Villa, Pedro (especially), and a younger Messi from time to time.

Even a back 4 of Maldini - Baresi - Costacurta - Tassotti would have conceded 3-4 goals against Bayern with the laziness of our forwards and to an extent, midfield.

No comparison to back then. The Messi and Suarez of today are shadows of those players, I don't care what some hand-picked stats say.
 

serghei

Senior Member
I will post the 2nd and 3rd phases of that action, until the goal scored by Gnabry. I don't think there are big individual errors from our defenders. Roberto has the biggest individual error, and it's not a huge one.

Some great football by Bayern and a lot of weaknesses in how we do defense. Or not do, to be more exact.
 

KingLeo10

Senior Member
The one who disappoints me here is Suarez. Much of his success between 2010 and 2016 was built on his hunger (no pun intended). He was a physical specimen (not in the CR7 or Lewandowski sense but he was a force who kept CBs honest).

The man really let himself go after those 58 goals in 15/16 and frankly has been stealing a living in some seasons based on his CL output. At least Messi has continued to dominate home games.
 

Fati_Future_BallonDor

Well-known member
The one who disappoints me here is Suarez. Much of his success between 2010 and 2016 was built on his hunger (no pun intended). He was a physical specimen (not in the CR7 or Lewandowski sense but he was a force who kept CBs honest).

The man really let himself go after those 58 goals in 15/16 and frankly has been stealing a living in some seasons based on his CL output. At least Messi has continued to dominate home games.

Yeah he was unbelievable till 2016. I remember 2014 when Uruguay needed a win against England to pass the group stage and Suarez scored two incredible goals - he was there when you need him. He played like a hungry tiger. But after 15/16 he become more and more a donkey.
 

serghei

Senior Member
B) STAGE TWO. First huge chance being created through this build-up from the back sequence by Bayern.

1. Thiago doesn't choose a more difficult pass option, and goes for the typical follow-up. Wide to Alphonso in space, rather typical progression.
7.png


Won't dwell too much on this one. Just a typical progression. As said before, due to Roberto being very central (to account for De Jong pressing from earlier), Alphonso Davies, one of the fastest players in the world has a lot of space on our right flank.

So, far no real mistakes from our defenders. Roberto's central position is typical response in these situations (you always go narrow when there is a central threat, at the expense of leaving the widest player free).

Also, another thing to note. The default pair was Roberto - Alphonso (typical RM - LB), and Perisic - Semedo (typical RB - LW). This will turn into Semedo vs Perisic + Davies for a brief moment, because Roberto is dragged away from Alphonso Davies, to neutralize Muller who appears in the center. Davies will be taken by Semedo. Perisic is handed to Pique. This all happens in just a couple of seconds.

2. Here Roberto makes a mistake, he should stay closer to Perisic, because De Jong is now back in his position, and Pique has rejoined the backline. There are now conditions to revert to a more stable setup. But Roberto doesn't transition.
8.png


So, this is an error from Roberto, but the type of error that happens a lot on the field when marking pairs are exchanged. Roberto intially has drifted centrally to replace De Jong, but as soon as De Jong is back in a natural CM position, Roberto should have kept closer to his man, which should be Perisic here.

Here is another interesting fact that makes this error happen. Initially, Perisic can't be passed to directly by Davies, because Alphonso is well blocked by Semedo. This makes Roberto relax prematurely, thinking the action is contained, when in reality Perisic can be reactivated by a simple back pass from Davies to an open Thiago, facing the game unmarked and unbothered. Again.

Which brings us again to the key role of Thiago. And back to Messi. Thiago often plays in a retreat DLP role where he dictates the game from deep, which should have been in the task of Messi or Suarez to block (depending on the side Thiago gravitates towards, drops to his right -> Suarez takes him on, drops to his left -> Messi takes him on).

So, Messi with another defensive error here. He is not even in the picture. Messi should be on the same line with Suarez, who, funnily enough, here is placed well from a defensive standpoint. Messi is probably walking somewhere off frame completely uninterested. Because he is not there, Thiago can engage both flank at will. Either on his right, for Kimmich, who attempts a long run behind Alba. Or for Perisic, who is alone (due to Roberto's slow reaction).

3. Perisic is played on, engages in obligatory 1 vs 1 with Roberto who is known to be a liability in these cases (many defenders are).
9.png


Pretty clear here. Again, I have to point out that Messi is still not respecting any kind of role defensively. It's as if we are playing with 8 in defense, with Messi and Suarez being somewhere in the stands. Look how the distance between back line and midfield is properly short, with a compact shape, making it reasonably hard to pass between the lines. But how the distance between the midfield and Messi + Suarez is disproportionately huge in comparison, making it very easy for Bayern to provide their midfielders with good passes at any time.

4. Perisic puts in a good cross, and we almost concede the 3rd.
10.png


Not much to note here, good cross form dangerous position, Ter Stegen doesn't do too well with it, and it's a huge chance by Bayern for 3-1. We survive by pure luck. We clear the ball and now go into the 3rd stage. Which is Bayern winning back possession and attempting another positional attack.

Recap at this point from first stage. Thiago plays the ball to Davies, Davies is tracked down by Semedo and pressed into a safety back-pass solution to Thiago. Thiago, again, for the 3rd time in the overall action, unpressed and unmarked, able to control the game, easily plays on Perisic in space. Meanwhile, Roberto is marking Perisic way too loosely, and Messi not doing anything. Perisic runs at Roberto in speed (has plenty of time and space to accelerate), places a good cross. We barely survive, and Vidal clears the ball aimlessly in desperation.
 

Rory

Senior Member
I respect the fact you go to these lengths and there are some valid points but it does kind of seem a bit like mental gymnastics to make everything the fault of Messi.
 

serghei

Senior Member
I respect the fact you go to these lengths and there are some valid points but it does kind of seem a bit like mental gymnastics to make everything the fault of Messi.

I will address any comment over that analysis. Not everything is down to Messi. There are errors from more players in this game, but a lot of them are down to Messi and Suarez no doubt. And those posts discuss them in detail.

Messi and Suarez are the only players that don't care to defend, that much is true. And it's not something I can look past as a Barca fan. I can accept errors, but I don't have any sympathy for players that refuse to defend and hang their teammates out to dry.
 
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KingLeo10

Senior Member

I'll add another layer of complication, which is the lack of pedigree in terms of football tactics from the coaching staff. Everyone's roles in the pressing game are so well defined in the video above. And this was back in 2010-2011 when this or variants of this weren't the norm among top teams.

Not only do we need to press more, but the roles need to be communicated clearly and both Setien and EV were out of their depth here. Admittedly so was Lucho but he had other great attributes and a loaded team, at least in 14/15.
 

serghei

Senior Member

I'll add another layer of complication, which is the lack of pedigree in terms of football tactics from the coaching staff. Everyone's roles in the pressing game are so well defined in the video above. And this was back in 2010-2011 when this or variants of this weren't the norm among top teams.

Not only do we need to press more, but the roles need to be communicated clearly and both Setien and EV were out of their depth here. Admittedly so was Lucho but he had other great attributes and a loaded team, at least in 14/15.

I was one of the main criticizers of Valverde, but now I'm not so sure that the roles weren't communicated clearly. I think that the veterans simply don't have what it takes to perform those roles and that the managers had to alter their plans because of this reason. Often to catastrophic results.

Imo, the Setien tenure did show Valverde in a better light, and did expose that some of the things he was harshly blamed for weren't his fault to the extent some fans believed (me included). He just didn't have enough support and enough personality/bravery to rock the boat and establish himself as the guy in charge of the team. Instead, he just preferred to roll with the issues and hide them. Of course, that was bad for the team in medium-long term, but can't really blame him for it now as harshly as I did in the past.
 
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Rory

Senior Member
I will address any comment over that analysis. Not everything is down to Messi. There are errors from more players in this game, but a lot of them are down to Messi and Suarez no doubt. And those posts discuss them in detail.

Messi and Suarez are the only players that don't care to defend, that much is true. And it's not something I can look past as a Barca fan. I can accept errors, but I don't have any sympathy for players that refuse to defend and leave their teammates out to dry.

I don't look past it either. Can't stand seeing them walk around. Suarez shouldn't be on the pitch at the same time as Messi in games like these. Messi not running is annoying but it matters less to me because he creates danger. This very game as I mentioned we have a handful of good chances thanks to him being higher up the pitch which you fail to point out.

The analysis seems like it's: how can I make this Messi's fault. Roberto shouldn't be getting dragged out of positions, Semedo shouldn't be chasing Davies to the middle of the pitch where 3 barca players are. These are BIG mistakes in a UCL game.

Should De jong and Busquets be chasing after thiago when he's at his own penalty area? I would say absolutely not as it creates the midfield superiority. Yes Messi isn't closing him down here but that shouldn't mean players like slowcoach Busquets and De jong should be running so far forward, this is just a dumb move on their behalf.

Btw I do think the big scoreline was also Messi and Suarez's faults. It's just a lot of the goals had nothing to do with them is more my point. They still need to get their arses kicked for not closing down.
 

KingLeo10

Senior Member
I was one of the main criticizers of Valverde, but now I'm not so sure that the roles weren't communicated clearly. I think that the veterans simply don't have what it takes to perform those roles and that the managers had to alter their plans because of this reason. Often to catastrophic results.

Imo, the Setien tenure did show Valverde in a better light, and did expose that some of the things he was harshly blamed for weren't his fault to the extent some fans believed (me included). He just didn't have enough support and enough personality/bravery to rock the boat. Instead, he just preferred to roll with the issues. Of course, that was bad for the team in medium-long term, but can't really blame him for it now as harshly as I did in the past.

What I'm trying to show is that there's levels to the pressing game. I'm sure EV and Setien had their ideas but the foundation of those was mostly grit and hard work. I'm saying there's a dimension of intelligence to the pressing where the players systematically aim for passing lanes on top of huffing and puffing (instead of huffing and puffing alone). A manager of Guardiola or Klopp's caliber, or even Flick and Ten Hag seem to be those types among the current crop.

On this note, I'm excited to see what Xavi brings.
 

MagIX

Senior Member
When I speak about the defense, I view it as a series of inter-related actions from all over the field. Many people view our defense as Semedo/Roberto - Pique - Lenglet - Alba. When they say our defense is crap, they mean these 4 players are crap. :lol: There is no such thing as defense in 4 players. If you have a major unbalance in an area, the corresponding areas will have to compensate that, and by doing that they will create gaps in their compartments instead, because they vacate their positions to fix that imbalance.

I agree with that. But we were talking about the match against Liverpool, the goals are very stupid individual mistakes (Alba's pass back without seeing Man?
is not a tactical error), not to mention the 4th goal.

Thanks for your long analysis, very interesting.
But for me there is one thing that differentiates it all: here we are talking about Messi, a unique player, a goat. He is the only player (with cr7) that his lack of
participation in the defensive phase can be tolerated as he has unique qualities that largely compensate for this lack.
With a team (composed of 10 players + 1 player considered maybe the goat), a unit of 11 players well organized, with the right players in the right position, with a plan, a tactic, a motivation, a desire to win, with a winning team spirit, and so on...BUT with 1 player of 11 who do not participate enough in defense, BUT he's a unique, stratospheric, incredible talented player like Messi (considered maybe the goat),.... I am sure that's not a problem, I am sure 100% that a coach like Klopp (and not only him) would be able to put together a fantastic winning team.
 

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