Lionel Messi - v7

[KingLeo10]

I agree with that. But we were talking about the match against Liverpool, the goals are very stupid individual mistakes (Alba's pass back without seeing Man?
is not a tactical error), not to mention the 4th goal.

Thanks for your long analysis, very interesting.
But for me there is one thing that differentiates it all: here we are talking about Messi, a unique player, a goat. He is the only player (with cr7) that his lack of
participation in the defensive phase can be tolerated as he has unique qualities that largely compensate for this lack.
With a team (composed of 10 players + 1 player considered maybe the goat), a unit of 11 players well organized, with the right players in the right position, with a plan, a tactic, a motivation, a desire to win, with a winning team spirit, and so on...BUT with 1 player of 11 who do not participate enough in defense, BUT he's a unique, stratospheric, incredible talented player like Messi (considered maybe the goat),.... I am sure that's not a problem, I am sure 100% that a coach like Klopp (and not only him) would be able to put together a fantastic winning team.

Messi and CR7's lack of defensive contribution is only masked well when surrounded by hard working, world class talent. Xavi Iniesta, Alves, Suarez (at one point), Neymar etc. and Marcelo, Modric, Kroos, Ramos, Benzema (underrated AF) etc.

There's a reason CR7 is getting bounced out in R of 16 and Messi's getting embarrassed these days. Part of that is they've declined but a bigger part is that they don't have world class teammates anymore.

 

[Respekt_III]

I agree with that. But we were talking about the match against Liverpool, the goals are very stupid individual mistakes (Alba's pass back without seeing Man?
is not a tactical error), not to mention the 4th goal.

Thanks for your long analysis, very interesting.
But for me there is one thing that differentiates it all: here we are talking about Messi, a unique player, a goat. He is the only player (with cr7) that his lack of
participation in the defensive phase can be tolerated as he has unique qualities that largely compensate for this lack.
With a team (composed of 10 players + 1 player considered maybe the goat), a unit of 11 players well organized, with the right players in the right position, with a plan, a tactic, a motivation, a desire to win, with a winning team spirit, and so on...BUT with 1 player of 11 who do not participate enough in defense, BUT he's a unique, stratospheric, incredible talented player like Messi (considered maybe the goat),.... I am sure that's not a problem, I am sure 100% that a coach like Klopp (and not only him) would be able to put together a fantastic winning team.

I agree with this sentiment, however time catches up with everyone and Messi is starting to decline. There will be a point at which he no longer offers enough to merit that type of sacrifice or tactical setup. i beleive he can still give us a good 2-3 years in the right position/role with the right setup and personell; This means we cant have players like suarez, busi, vidal playing anywhere on the pitch at the same time as messi, it also means we have to have true wingers with speed, control, take on ability and workrate. having a front like of griezman coutinho messi isnt going to work.

I should also add that he should be rested/benched more for both his longevity and tactical reasons when called for.

 

[soul24rage]

I agree with this sentiment, however time catches up with everyone and Messi is starting to decline. There will be a point at which he no longer offers enough to merit that type of sacrifice or tactical setup. i beleive he can still give us a good 2-3 years in the right position/role with the right setup and personell; This means we cant have players like suarez, busi, vidal playing anywhere on the pitch at the same time as messi, it also means we have to have true wingers with speed, control, take on ability and workrate. having a front like of griezman coutinho messi isnt going to work.

I should also add that he should be rested/benched more for both his longevity and tactical reasons when called for.

I think that's what Koeman is thinking as well. Young, Pacy, Intense, Workaholic, Talented players surrounding Messi.

 

[serghei]

Roberto shouldn't be getting dragged out of positions

Roberto has to close down centrally to block open players that appear there, in this case Muller. That's obvious. Nowhere near an error, let alone a big error. Roberto is right to position like he did here.

Semedo shouldn't be chasing Davies to the middle of the pitch where 3 barca players are.

Here it's arguable how much Semedo should have followed Davies. There is a mistake in the marking exchange between Semedo and Roberto.

Should De jong and Busquets be chasing after thiago when he's at his own penalty area?

Only De Jong goes to press. And yes, if you want to block Bayern from dictating the game, i.e. how modern teams defend. If you decide to defend with a deep block, then you can allow Thiago to receive at will until he approaches your half.

But I don't think we want to be a crappier version of Atletico Madrid. Even if we did approach the game with an Atletico-type low block, Messi and Suarez still do not defend anywhere near well enough for such a tactic. Remember that Atletico defend with 10 players all of which do their job, they don't have walkers doing nothing.

Btw I do think the big scoreline was also Messi and Suarez's faults. It's just a lot of the goals had nothing to do with them is more my point. They still need to get their arses kicked for not closing down.

How can you say they have nothing to do with the goals, when they didn't do their job in defense at all? It's completely nonsensical. You basically say defending is not important until the ball reaches your back-line.

Stopping and blocking the opponent from arriving in dangerous positions is not important? That's like leaving the front door open at night and trying to smack a burglar only if he enters your bedroom.

 

[serghei]

I think that's what Koeman is thinking as well. Young, Pacy, Intense, Workaholic, Talented players surrounding Messi.

Sure, that will help things. To which extent remains to be seen.

 

[Respekt_III]

Sure, that will help things. To which extent remains to be seen.

I think it would help the team immensely. If Messi is played as the focal point of our attack it will solve a lot of our issues, we might need to go with the 4-2-3-1 and have messi/cf interchange between the defensive and attacking phases.

We can then press/set traps to cut off passing lanes etc when required and let them have the ball in particularly low danger zones and only press when they approach particular areas. It means we will be more defensively solid while being very threatening on the break

 

[Rory]

Roberto has to close down centrally to block open players that appear there, in this case Muller. That's obvious. Nowhere near an error, let alone a big error. Roberto is right to position like he did here.




Here it's arguable how much Semedo should have followed Davies. There is a mistake in the marking exchange between Semedo and Roberto.




Only De Jong goes to press. And yes, if you want to block Bayern from dictating the game, i.e. how modern teams defend. If you decide to defend with a deep block, then you can allow Thiago to receive at will until he approaches your half.

But I don't think we want to be a crappier version of Atletico Madrid. Even if we did approach the game with an Atletico-type low block, Messi and Suarez still do not defend anywhere near well enough for such a tactic. Remember that Atletico defend with 10 players all of which do their job, they don't have walkers doing nothing.




How can you say they have nothing to do with the goals, when they didn't do their job in defense at all? It's completely nonsensical. You basically say defending is not important until the ball reaches your back-line.

Stopping and blocking the opponent from arriving in dangerous positions is not important? That's like leaving the front door open at night and trying to smack a burglar only if he enters your bedroom.

Don't know how to quote reply lol:

Roberto is repeatedly out of position because he thinks he should be somewhere else, it's his lack of football intelligence that forces him to leave the worlds fastest player (literally) unmarked. In the 2nd snapshot Frenkie presses Thiago at the point where he already has the ball and is already moving it forward, it was a pointless endeavour that massively contributed to a midfield superiority and didn't even accomplish anything. Frenkie could have been marking a player more tightly and reducing Thiago's passing options but instead he left a player free which Thiago found anyway. You're assuming also that you can simply nullify players ability to pick a pass by pressing them. Thiago is a world class pass picker and can get through any defence/midfield.

But do you see how your version is: Messi didn't close down and therefore Frenkie has to and therefore Roberto is dragged out of position and therefore ..... goalscoring chance. It could just as easily be passed off as what I'm saying.

Do you think Messi's teammates are unaware of his lack of pressing? No right? So why do they play as if he's going to plug the holes they leave behind once they needlessly run towards a player who is on the edge of his box?

It's not arguable how much Semedo should have ran centrally, it's a big mistake simple as that.

Also I'm saying they had nothing to do with SOME of the goals.

And that analogy I disagree with, I'd say the forwards of a team are like a BEWARE DOG sign (aren't really the ultimate defence of a house just a deterrent) but if the actual dog is a chihuahua then your house isn't getting defended.

 

[Respekt_III]

Don't know how to quote reply lol:

Roberto is repeatedly out of position because he thinks he should be somewhere else, it's his lack of football intelligence that forces him to leave the worlds fastest player (literally) unmarked. In the 2nd snapshot Frenkie presses Thiago at the point where he already has the ball and is already moving it forward, it was a pointless endeavour that massively contributed to a midfield superiority and didn't even accomplish anything. Frenkie could have been marking a player more tightly and reducing Thiago's passing options but instead he left a player free which Thiago found anyway. You're assuming also that you can simply nullify players ability to pick a pass by pressing them. Thiago is a world class pass picker and can get through any defence/midfield.

But do you see how your version is: Messi didn't close down and therefore Frenkie has to and therefore Roberto is dragged out of position and therefore ..... goalscoring chance. It could just as easily be passed off as what I'm saying.

Do you think Messi's teammates are unaware of his lack of pressing? No right? So why do they play as if he's going to plug the holes they leave behind once they needlessly run towards a player who is on the edge of his box?

It's not arguable how much Semedo should have ran centrally, it's a big mistake simple as that.

Also I'm saying they had nothing to do with SOME of the goals.

And that analogy I disagree with, I'd say the forwards of a team are like a BEWARE DOG sign (aren't really the ultimate defence of a house just a deterrent) but if the actual dog is a chihuahua then your house isn't getting defended.

We didn't have a defensive pressing structure under EV and we definitely didn't have one under Setien, so im not sure the players were aware on how to position themsleves and when to press etc. Maintaining their defensive positions and closing off some space would of helped somewhat but as you rightly pointed out in the end it would of probably ended with the same outcome, you cant let guys like thiago make passes at will under no pressure what so ever.. that's kind of where some pressing (although not great) would help against a team like bayern.

 

[Rory]

We didn't have a defensive pressing structure under EV and we definitely didn't have one under Setien, so im not sure the players were aware on how to position themsleves and when to press etc. Maintaining their defensive positions and closing off some space would of helped somewhat but as you rightly pointed out in the end it would of probably ended with the same outcome, you cant let guys like thiago make passes at will under no pressure what so ever.. that's kind of where some pressing (although not great) would help against a team like bayern.

I guess I just mean pick and choose the moments to let him try his passes. Middle of the pitch? Close that guy down asap, edge of his box? For me, not much point

 

[serghei]

Don't know how to quote reply lol:

Roberto is repeatedly out of position because he thinks he should be somewhere else, it's his lack of football intelligence that forces him to leave the worlds fastest player (literally) unmarked. In the 2nd snapshot Frenkie presses Thiago at the point where he already has the ball and is already moving it forward, it was a pointless endeavour that massively contributed to a midfield superiority and didn't even accomplish anything. Frenkie could have been marking a player more tightly and reducing Thiago's passing options but instead he left a player free which Thiago found anyway. You're assuming also that you can simply nullify players ability to pick a pass by pressing them. Thiago is a world class pass picker and can get through any defence/midfield.

But do you see how your version is: Messi didn't close down and therefore Frenkie has to and therefore Roberto is dragged out of position and therefore ..... goalscoring chance. It could just as easily be passed off as what I'm saying.

Do you think Messi's teammates are unaware of his lack of pressing? No right? So why do they play as if he's going to plug the holes they leave behind once they needlessly run towards a player who is on the edge of his box?

It's not arguable how much Semedo should have ran centrally, it's a big mistake simple as that.

Also I'm saying they had nothing to do with SOME of the goals.

And that analogy I disagree with, I'd say the forwards of a team are like a BEWARE DOG sign (aren't really the ultimate defence of a house just a deterrent) but if the actual dog is a chihuahua then your house isn't getting defended.

You're wrong man. For Roberto, it's very straightforward. You just can't leave an open central player just to stay close to your man. Your man is irrelevant when there is a more dangerous player free next to you. The free player becomes your man instantly. Which is exactly how it happened.

You look at it the wrong way with De Jong as well. So, basically, you say we should not press, because lazy Messi and Suarez make it suicidal. And instead of blaming this on Messi and Suarez being useless defensively and basically destroying any attempt to disrupt Bayern from creating attack after attack, you signal out De Jong for being too adventurous. Why did we sign him for then? To play him as a low block defender, because the players up front are too past it to run and carry their own weight defensively?

I repeat, what is this team. Atletico Madrid defending with 2 players sent off (Messi and Suarez)? How does this sound anything worth pursuing? The way forward is to replace the players who don't work off the ball with players who do. First Suarez, and if this is not enough, then Messi.

 

[Kul_z]

I will post the 2nd and 3rd phases of that action, until the goal scored by Gnabry. I don't think there are big individual errors from our defenders. Roberto has the biggest individual error, and it's not a huge one.

Some great football by Bayern and a lot of weaknesses in how we do defense. Or not do, to be more exact.

No individual errors considering that they are absolute shit at defending. Semedo? Roberto?
Semedo was molested 1 on 1 by Davies.

In those gifs you didnt explained our tactics. Why the fuck would de jong and especially busquets go so far up the field? that was the first error of them all. So, you are aware that they are faster then us and that they could harm us on counters. And what do you do? You pull the back line at the center of the field forcing oldie turtles to chase younger and faster players, exploiting space for them. It was nothing smart in bayerns play, it was us who allowed them to kill us everytime on break.
In that first gif you could also say that messi was looking at positioning of our players and has that body language of what the fuck are you doing up there?

Like you said, bayern is like a unit, our club is nothing close to unit, from president to players.

Lets see first how would we look under koemann, without busquets and suarez, and then lets make conclussions of if messi is finished or not

 

[Rory]

You're wrong man. For Roberto, it's very straightforward. You just can't leave an open central player just to stay close to your man. Your man is irrelevant when there is a more dangerous player free next to you. The free player becomes your man instantly. Which is exactly how it happened.

You look at it the wrong way with De Jong as well. So, basically, you say we should not press, because Messi and Suarez makes it suicidal. And instead of blaming this on Messi and Suarez being useless defensively and basically destroying any attempt to disrupt Bayern from creating attack after attack, you signal out De Jong for being too adventurous. Why did you sign him for then? To play him as a low block defender, because the players up front are too past it to run?

I repeat, what is this team. Atletico Madrid defending with 2 players sent off (Messi and Suarez)? How does this sound anything worth pursuing?

I don't basically say we shouldn't press, one more straw man and I won't bother replying anymore.

I personally would sign De Jong to be a CDM like he should be. If we're going to play with Messi and Suarez up front then yes conservative tactics would have been better. If you're suggesting De jong is signed to press really high up the pitch then you don't know much about his strengths.

You see it one way and I see it another but I don't label your view as wrong. You can come across as being REALLY sanctimonious sometimes serghei.

 

[serghei]

I guess I just mean pick and choose the moments to let him try his passes. Middle of the pitch? Close that guy down asap, edge of his box? For me, not much point

When he is at the edge of his box, if you don't press him he advances on the ball until the middle of the pitch, unbothered, due to Messi and Suarez walking or standing still. As it happened in one of the images I posted, because there is no one to block or press him. So, you get to the same spot. Thiago in space able to pass at will.

I don't basically say we shouldn't press, one more straw man and I won't bother replying anymore.

I personally would sign De Jong to be a CDM like he should be. If we're going to play with Messi and Suarez up front then yes conservative tactics would have been better. If you're suggesting De jong is signed to press really high up the pitch then you don't know much about his strengths.

You see it one way and I see it another but I don't label your view as wrong. You can come across as being REALLY sanctimonious sometimes serghei.

It seems you didn't read what I wrote properly. De Jong only presses there because Messi and Suarez did nothing, especially Messi since Suarez is farther out. That's the only reason why he presses there, to compensate for others not doing their job. Again, if he doesn't press, Thiago moves up until is pressed. You reach the same point sooner or later. You just hand out free space to Thiago, and save Bayern of some anti-press moves, obviously since space is presented by itself.

We have seen conservative tactics "working" vs Roma. 0-3 was the result with us battered. This was a team two times better than Roma.

 

[Rory]

When he is at the edge of his box, if you don't press him he advances on the ball until the middle of the pitch, unbothered, due to Messi and Suarez walking or standing still. As it happened in one of the images I posted, because there is no one to block or press him. So, you get to the same spot. Thiago in space able to pass at will.

Because allowing him to advance from the edge of the box to the middle allows time to regain shape and structure, to organise defensively. To maybe tell your teammate "you watch him I'll close down."

Also if you're marking a player and another is advancing with the ball you at least have more passing lanes closed down and can pressure that advancing player knowing the passing angle he needs to reach the player you were marking.

 

[serghei]

No individual errors considering that they are absolute shit at defending. Semedo? Roberto?
Semedo was molested 1 on 1 by Davies.

In those gifs you didnt explained our tactics. Why the fuck would de jong and especially busquets go so far up the field? that was the first error of them all. So, you are aware that they are faster then us and that they could harm us on counters. And what do you do? You pull the back line at the center of the field forcing oldie turtles to chase younger and faster players, exploiting space for them. It was nothing smart in bayerns play, it was us who allowed them to kill us everytime on break.
In that first gif you could also say that messi was looking at positioning of our players and has that body language of what the fuck are you doing up there?

Like you said, bayern is like a unit, our club is nothing close to unit, from president to players.

Lets see first how would we look under koemann, without busquets and suarez, and then lets make conclussions of if messi is finished or not

Again, this is the worst argument possible. Why play like some limp version of Atletico, when we can ditch Messi and Suarez and play like most big teams do? Great argument defending Messi and Suarez. Pretend it's normal for them to not defend at all, and blame others for not accepting that as given and trying to play actual modern football.