Lionel Messi - v7

[serghei]

Because allowing him to advance from the edge of the box to the middle allows time to regain shape and structure, to organise defensively. To maybe tell your teammate "you watch him I'll close down."

Also if you're marking a player and another is advancing with the ball you at least have more passing lanes closed down and can pressure that advancing player knowing the passing angle he needs to reach the player you were marking.

You make a good case, except your point is only valid AFTER you admit Messi and Suarez are defensively crap, and generate problems for our defense. So, once you admit that, you can find ways to make the problems they cause as little as possible. And here is where you, indeed, offer solutions.

This is what your posts do. Promote tailoring our defensive organization to make the damage of Messi and Suarez doing jack shit defensively as low as possible. If this is how you think we should play, going forward, no disrespect. I disagree totally.

 

[Respekt_III]

Because allowing him to advance from the edge of the box to the middle allows time to regain shape and structure, to organise defensively. To maybe tell your teammate "you watch him I'll close down."

Also if you're marking a player and another is advancing with the ball you at least have more passing lanes closed down and can pressure that advancing player knowing the passing angle he needs to reach the player you were marking.

Agree with this, Its better to hold your position/move to block passing (while the defence drops a bit further back forming a stronger defensive block) lanes than offer the space in behind, however eventually you still do need to come out meet one of the players. The space will still open up at some point because someone does need to stop him from advancing; by that time the defence should hopefully be more set offering little space between the lines as well as closer gaps between the defenders. This in the end will still present Bayern with opportunities (with us losing) just not by the same margin.

If we had forward players that would assist in the pressing/defence then they would be the ones that come in to pickup Thiago while the cm's did their jobs shielding the back 4 and it would mean that the potential opportunities bayern may have are much more limited.

 

[Kul_z]

Again, this is the worst argument possible. Why play like some limp version of Atletico, when we can ditch Messi and Suarez and play like most big teams do? Great argument defending Messi and Suarez. Pretend it's normal for them to not defend at all, and blame others for not accepting that as given and trying to play actual modern football.

I dont know why are you trying to force the narrative of atletico by the simple yet complicated tactic of maintaining the position, we introduced the pressing game to the world of football, and other clubs had taken a step above that with athleticism.
Line up of
Semedo pique lenglet alba
Busquets
Roberto de jong vidal
Messi Suarez

We were doomed from beginning.

I REPEAT, IM NOT DEFENDING SUAREZ, but there were couple of chances where the turtle himself was running at neuer while boateng and alaba were closing him down like he is some heavy veteran grandpa league, which he is!

BUT, IF WE HAD A LEFT WINGER we could do a massive damage to bayern.

Coincidence or not, our last three eliminations came without a proper LEFT WINGER and without PACE upfront.
In your narrative, suarez and messi could be enough for la liga, but against very top clubs we need someone who would put defense on pressure, not by pressing them like madman, but to put them on high alert. I dont give a fuck about suarez, but blaming messi who is only doing his job at the highest possible level is utter madness

 

[serghei]

Agree with this, Its better to hold your position/move to block passing (while the defence drops a bit further back forming a stronger defensive block) lanes than offer the space in behind, however eventually you still do need to come out meet one of the players. The space will still open up at some point because someone does need to stop him from advancing; by that time the defence should hopefully be more set offering little space between the lines as well as closer gaps between the defenders. This in the end will still present Bayern with opportunities (with us losing) just not by the same margin.

If we had forward players that would assist in the pressing/defence then they would be the ones that come in to pickup Thiago while the cm's did their jobs shielding the back 4 and it would mean that the potential opportunities bayern may have are much more limited.

This is damage limitation what you're talking about. Not a proper defensive organization. The purpose is to compete with these teams, not take in as few as possible. For that we need to be able to press them.

We could have played as vs Roma, and maybe lost 0-5 or 1-5 instead of 2-8.

 

[Respekt_III]

I dont know why are you trying to force the narrative of atletico by the simple yet complicated tactic of maintaining the position, we introduced the pressing game to the world of football, and other clubs had taken a step above that with athleticism.
Line up of
Semedo pique lenglet alba
Busquets
Roberto de jong vidal
Messi Suarez

We were doomed from beginning.

I REPEAT, IM NOT DEFENDING SUAREZ, but there were couple of chances where the turtle himself was running at neuer while boateng and alaba were closing him down like he is some heavy veteran grandpa league, which he is!

BUT, IF WE HAD A LEFT WINGER we could do a massive damage to bayern.

Coincidence or not, our last three eliminations came without a proper LEFT WINGER and without PACE upfront.
In your narrative, suarez and messi could be enough for la liga, but against very top clubs we need someone who would put defense on pressure, not by pressing them like madman, but to put them on high alert. I dont give a fuck about suarez, but blaming messi who is only doing his job at the highest possible level is utter madness

Having an attacking threat wouldn't have allowed Bayern or Roma or Liverpool to press as aggressively as they did that's for sure. I agree that Messi on his own wont be too much of a burden on the team and that there are other factors that have contributed to our substandard performances.
Having said that you cant ignore that Messi does bring us tactical issues as well; it leaves our right wing devoid of any width with the field becoming narrower and as a result our attacking structure and patterns are non existent (obviously a bit more complicated than that eg semedo being useless on the overlap due to tactics or what ever etc etc).

This is damage limitation what you're talking about. Not a proper defensive organization. The purpose is to compete with these teams, not take in as few as possible. For that we need to be able to press them.

We could have played as vs Roma, and maybe lost 0-5 or 1-5 instead of 2-8.

I know its damage limitation, its what i basically wrote but its still the correct way to defend in that situation, the only difference is whether the attacking players eventually press thiago or not (this being more reactive/while you are advocating a more proactive approach)

 

[serghei]

I know its damage limitation, its kind of what i wrote but its still the correct way to defend in that current situation.

But the problem with that is people pretend that Messi and Suarez don't do anything wrong defensively. If they don't do anything wrong defensively, then why can't we press well?

What you say is something like... listen, Messi and Suarez are shit defensively, so we have to keep it tight, and play like this to avoid blowouts. I can agree with that, but that's not the point. That's the stuff we've been doing for years and getting blown out in Europe each season.

The job of Barca as a team is not to find the least crap system to account for Messi and Suarez defending like shit. It is to make Messi and / or Suarez defend better, or move them on.

 

[Respekt_III]

But the problem with that is people pretend that Messi and Suarez don't do anything wrong defensively. If they don't do anything wrong defensively, then why can't we press well?

What you say is something like... listen, Messi and Suarez are shit defensively, so we have to keep it tight, and play like this to avoid blowouts. I can agree with that, but that's not the point. That's the stuff we've been doing for years and getting blown out in Europe each season.

The job of Barca as a team is not to find the least crap system to account for Messi and Suarez defending like shit. It is to make Messi and / or Suarez defend better, or move them on.

I'm well aware, the main difference between us is that i think with the right tactical setup Messi will not be such a defensive burden (and still has a lot to offer); As for Suarez my position on him is very clear.

 

[serghei]

I'm well aware, the main difference between us is that i think with the right tactical setup Messi will not be such a defensive burden (and still has a lot to offer); As for Suarez my position on him is very clear.

I have my doubts about this. Messi will remain the same defensive burden, it's just that Suarez will no longer be one. Don't think it's enough to be competitive in CL. But we'll see.

 

[Rory]

You make a good case, except your point is only valid AFTER you admit Messi and Suarez are defensively crap, and generate problems for our defense. So, once you admit that, you can find ways to make the problems they cause as little as possible. And here is where you, indeed, offer solutions.

This is what your posts do. Promote tailoring our defensive organization to make the damage of Messi and Suarez doing jack shit defensively as low as possible. If this is how you think we should play, going forward, no disrespect. I disagree totally.

But serghei where have I said Messi and Suarez aren't crap defensively? I've repeatedly said they are and also said they shouldn't be played together in games like this. Doens't mean if they are shit at defending the others players give up and use crap tactics.

 

[SmilerBam]

You?d be asking the same question next summer as well when he really does leave. Its inevitable so should have just gotten it over with. There is no point in delaying it.

We dont know if these new, young players will be world beaters but it is a good start to the rebuild. We already have a decent core to stand on. They sure as hell fight and want to win. Difference between 1st and 2nd half yesterday was like 2 different galaxies.

How you say? Well if we announced Messi is up for grabs for 100m and sold him (and saved a LOT on his wages) we could have gotten 2 very good defenders, but no its more important to keep an unhappy player against his will. Long term the best solution was to sell him and everyone knows it.

He'll probably be gone next summer anyway.Maybe hw should have left this summer,but would you have trusted Bartomeu with all those funds?I also think City wanted him for free,and that is unacceptable for a player of his quality under contract,even at 33.I think that s why the move didn't materialize.Anyway,people have to understand this a lost year anyway.With or without Messi.I don't trust Koeman as a coach and as hell i don t trust Bartomeu even in his last months here.Next summer and elections can't come soon enough.

 

[Kul_z]

Having an attacking threat wouldn't have allowed Bayern or Roma or Liverpool to press as aggressively as they did that's for sure. I agree that Messi on his own wont be too much of a burden on the team and that there are other factors that have contributed to our substandard performances.
Having said that you cant ignore that Messi does bring us tactical issues as well; it leaves our right wing devoid of any width with the field becoming narrower and as a result our attacking structure and patterns are non existent (obviously a bit more complicated than that eg semedo being useless on the overlap due to tactics or what ever etc etc).

Points:
Suarez is terrible. His workrate is shit. His pace is shit. His passes are shit. Control of the ball shit. Vision shit. Couple of golazos here and there but he is a dead meat walking. Keep him out of the 20m zone and he cant harm you, but the fat fuck inside those 20m looks like a football player afterall.

Messi: his workrate is shit. His passes are godlike. His pace is meh. His ball control is second to none. His vision is pretty damn good. Scores goals, assists, and scores golazos here and there.

Difference. Messi is Messi, Suarez is past it.

Messi should maintain his position, agreed. But, messi should get a freedom in final third.
Thats koemanns headache how he would use messi or not, and im waiting to see how would we look under him. We are not a second tier club, we need some strategical reinforcments and we are up there competing.

We all had laughed at valverde because he wanted to bring willian, but in reality he would be a better reinforcement than cou and griez by miles.

 

[serghei]

But serghei where have I said Messi and Suarez aren't crap defensively? I've repeatedly said they are and also said they shouldn't be played together in games like this. Doens't mean if they are shit at defending the others players give up and use crap tactics.

The other players didn't give up. It's just that it is impossible to defend in 8 players with 2 players that walk around and watch the game blocking no one. It's been done before what you say. This is not the first game where we are humiliated in CL.

What you say is just another variety of shit defense, like it's been proven before. Whether you press or keep positions and defend deep, the first line of defense is the forward line. For us, that is almost non existent.

Watch Atletico keeping positions on Anfield and doing little to no press. Watch the defensive work by their forwards. Atletico ran 151 km in 120 mins. Nearly 116 km in 90 mins. Outran Liverpool by nearly 5kms.

 

[Kul_z]

The other players didn't give up. It's just that it is impossible to defend in 8 players with 2 players that walk around and watch the game blocking no one. It's been done before what you say. This is not the first game where we are humiliated in CL.

What you say is just another variety of shit defense, like it's been proven before. Whether you press or keep positions and defend deep, the first line of defense is the forward line. For us, that is almost non existent.

Watch Atletico keeping positions on Anfield and doing little to no press. Watch the defensive work by their forwards. Atletico ran 151 km in 120 mins. Nearly 116 km in 90 mins. Outran Liverpool by nearly 5kms.

Ofcourse, but they dont have that amount of firepower that we have. So its natural that we keep the ball a bit more, and attack a bit more. Why does it need to go down like you either play like atletico or like bayern/liverpool?

Its the incompetence on the ball that worries me so much, defending less. If we have a functional middlefield by your standards, and by that i mean legs, decent control on the ball and someone who can advance with ball forward, creative enough to deploy quality passes, we are good to go.
We need to know what to do with the ball, and i repeat like a broken record, we need someone in attack with pace, either lw or cf.

Then we have options.

You all remember the times when we were starving for someone who would bring game to us, with high defensive line, not afraid to take the ball from us. They all knew it was suicide.

We were complete. Pique was world class because system and players played where they fit.

And thats what we are lacking.

I remember how we struggled when iniesta was on lw in couple of games, no matter the quality, you need pace to disturb the defensive line.

Y'all remember the game in 2011 in semifinal against madrid.
Textbook example how no name affelay with pace was a key to unlock disturbance in madrids defence.
We. Need. Pace.

 

[Birdy]

Props to @Serghei for the pictures, long analysis and hard work to show his argument through them.

And of course Serghei is absolutely right. It's ABC of modern football that you cannot defend with 8 men, and if the 10 players do not defend cohesively as a unit, the defensive plan will fail no matter what. Even teams that play 4-5-1 or similar formations and leave a man upfront in the defensive phase as a counter-attacking outlet, this man is never a walking or non-walking statue, but presses constantly either the CB or the DM.

Additionally, about playing it 'conservatively' that's exactly what we saw from Ernie, leaving the defensive deadwood upfront and defending with two banks of 4 in a low block. Again, insufficient in modern football. It makes a team like mediocre Roma 17/18 look like an offensive machine. Besides, the 8 that defend do not have individual qualities that would make them good players in that kind of system.

Ernie wanted to play Pep's high continuous pressing, and saw already in the first month that it's not possible with Messi and Suarez upfront. He masked it in the best ways he could, but still the outcome was tragic. His lack of bravery and personality meant the devastating regression of the last 3 years.
Setien had great ideas like his initial 3-4-3 that was a brilliant offensive plan, but soon realized that he had players unwilling to follow instructions and learn something new. Let alone that he didn't have again bravery and courage to bench the deadwood. It's interesting to note that best period under Setien came with Suarez injured, and when he was sloted back in the starting XI after the break, things were going crappier with every new game.

We desperately need someone to bench (if not kick out of the club) the deadwood, or else no renovation will ever happen.
Let's hope, only hope Koeman will be this man and Barcelona can defend again with 10 players

PS: By the way, I agree with Serghei that Messi being in the starting XI means we are out of any CL knock-out game.
And also to Messi apologists: even his offensive game is not the same since the end of 18/19. He has became very predictable there.

 

[Givenchy]

Props to @Serghei for the pictures, long analysis and hard work to show his argument through them.

And of course Serghei is absolutely right. It's ABC of modern football that you cannot defend with 8 men, and if the 10 players do not defend cohesively as a unit, the defensive plan will fail no matter what. Even teams that play 4-5-1 or similar formations and leave a man upfront in the defensive phase as a counter-attacking outlet, this man is never a walking or non-walking statue, but presses constantly either the CB or the DM.

Additionally, about playing it 'conservatively' that's exactly what we saw from Ernie, leaving the defensive deadwood upfront and defending with two banks of 4 in a low block. Again, insufficient in modern football. It makes a team like mediocre Roma 17/18 look like an offensive machine. Besides, the 8 that defend do not have individual qualities that would make them good players in that kind of system.

Ernie wanted to play Pep's high continuous pressing, and saw already in the first month that it's not possible with Messi and Suarez upfront. He masked it in the best ways he could, but still the outcome was tragic. His lack of bravery and personality meant the devastating regression of the last 3 years.
Setien had great ideas like his initial 3-4-3 that was a brilliant offensive plan, but soon realized that he had players unwilling to follow instructions and learn something new. Let alone that he didn't have again bravery and courage to bench the deadwood. It's interesting to note that best game under Setien came with Suarez injured, and when he sloted back in the starting XI after the break, things were going crappier with every new game.

We desperately need someone to bench (if not kick out of the club) the deadwood, or else no renovation will ever happen.
Let's hope, only hope Koeman will be this man and Barcelona can defend again with 10 players

PS: By the way, I agree with Serghei that Messi being in the starting XI means we are out of any CL knock-out game.
And also to Messi apologist: even his offensive game is not the same since the end of 18/19. He has became very predictable there.

I think alot of that is him being stubborn. He lacks stamina and workrate so instead of moving to a more fixed position up front he decides to drop deep and attempt dribbles his old self would make - add to this managers with no balls to tell him where to play and we end up with a tactical mess. Ronaldo in this aspect really out did him, I remember people were saying Ronaldo's pace would dry up and he'd be exposed whilst Messi would evolve into a midfielder.. heh