Lionel Messi - v7

[Respekt_III]

Hope he comes out and calls Bartomeu for a clueless cunt after Barca are inevitably eliminated from the CL.

That would be glorious; that fucking rat deserves it as well.

Don't know why there's even a debate about who's been the best player in the last 30 years; no one has combined consistent clinical efficiency for such a such a prolonged period. He has multiple elements to his game that no one player even comes close to having, vision, passing, finishing, dribilling etc etc.

The notion that somehow because x player won a less frequent knockout competition makes him better than Y is absurd. Knockout competitions are inherently flawed as a metric to measure ones greatness against others because of the inherent chance built into the format of that competition.

 

[bismp]

The sad truth is that until 2012,when he was just 25,he had won 2-3 CLs and 4 consecutive Golden Balls.

Since then,the last 8 years,despite maintaining more or less an astonishing level,he has only won 1 CL and 2 Golden Balls,while also losing 3 finals with Argentina.

It’s true that the current board has fucked him over as he could have easily won AT LEAST one more CL and Golden Ball.

But it’s also true that his career with Argentina has been a complete failure.I am sorry to say this,but it’s the truth:

2010 World Cup(right at the beginning of his prime,playing as the Golden Ball winner): He was decent,but he did not score a single goal.

2011 Copa(b2b Golden Ball winner,CL winner):I don’t remember specifics but he must have been quite bad.Iirc he did not score a goal and Argentina was eliminated really early on.

2014 WC:Was crucial in the group stage,but during the knockouts he did not score and he only gave one assist.His performance against Holland and Germany was nothing special.

2015 Copa:He was ok.He scored only 1 goal and gave 3 assists.He could not make the difference in the final though.

2016 Copa:His best tournament with Argentina,he had 5 goals and 4 assists but once again he could not make the difference in the final.

2018 WC:He was awful here.It’s tough to admit it but it’s true.And there’s not many excuses really,he was just 31.

2019 Copa:He was mediocre once again

 

[raskolnikov]

Ronaldo also had WC 1998. Insane performance too.

I wasnt that impressed to be honest. Beforehand people expected him to smash fontaine's record.
Given the insane talent and hype he didnt live up to it.
Zidane's 98 hype was way overrated as well because of the final. His euro's in 2000 or wc 2006 was better.

 

[serghei]

The sad truth is that until 2012,when he was just 25,he had won 2-3 CLs and 4 consecutive Golden Balls.

Since then,the last 8 years,despite maintaining more or less an astonishing level,he has only won 1 CL and 2 Golden Balls,while also losing 3 finals with Argentina.

It?s true that the current board has fucked him over as he could have easily won AT LEAST one more CL and Golden Ball.

But it?s also true that his career with Argentina has been a complete failure.I am sorry to say this,but it?s the truth:

2010 World Cup(right at the beginning of his prime,playing as the Golden Ball winner): He was decent,but he did not score a single goal.

2011 Copa(b2b Golden Ball winner,CL winner):I don?t remember specifics but he must have been quite bad.Iirc he did not score a goal and Argentina was eliminated really early on.

2014 WC:Was crucial in the group stage,but during the knockouts he did not score and he only gave one assist.His performance against Holland and Germany was nothing special.

2015 Copa:He was ok.He scored only 1 goal and gave 3 assists.He could not make the difference in the final though.

2016 Copa:His best tournament with Argentina,he had 5 goals and 4 assists but once again he could not make the difference in the final.

2018 WC:He was awful here.It?s tough to admit it but it?s true.And there?s not many excuses really,he was just 31.

2019 Copa:He was mediocre once again

Think people had unreasonable expectations, because they had formed in their head the wrong image of Messi at Barcelona, thinking Messi somehow carried the team. That's some fantasy. Messi was always a perfect cog in great machine at Barcelona. He was rarely asked to perform in poor conditions. And he gave his best version when everyone around him performed at world class levels.

Argentina were never able to give him that. So he didn't perform according to the expectations, because the expectations had no ground in reality. And when Barcelona also started to become more individually oriented, like Argentina, and lost the unity of the team that we had years ago, Messi started to drop in performances even at Barcelona.

Messi was always at his best on the biggest stage when he had a clear role and everyone around him performed very well. He is a team player (or he was until things got out of hand, this old and slow version is not a team player anymore). I don't see Messi as the type of player who can lead an under-performing team. And this is what Argentina expected of him, some Maradonian feat of elevating a good but not great team to a World Cup win. The mentality of most Argentinian fans who demanded Messi to win them the World Cup is stuck in the 80's. Right now, the only way to build a great side is to make sure you have a tight team that plays with cohesiveness and purpose, and a great manager.

 

[JamDav1982]

Alright, he qualified his NT to the world cup by himself, twice. Led them to finals, without Di Maria who was supposed to be his Valdano. But 'not as a captain'?
As what?
What did he have to do? And how can anybody tell about Masche "El cheferito" ? So much being told yet no proofs at all.

Messi was Argentinas best player overall in that World Cup. Largely due to the group stages. After that his influence became less and as much as anything the defence, the GK and individual moments from players other than him got them through knockout to the final.

The captain figure and leader in that team was Mascherano no matter who had arm band. As was often case at Barca as well.

 

[Messigician]

Maradona would have won the world cup in 2014 had his prime version played instead of Messi.

No offence to Messi but when he's not up for it everyone can see it and he won't dig deep to pull himself out of a hole he tends to sook.

Probably his only flaw as the GOAT

 

[JamDav1982]

Maradona would have won the world cup in 2014 had his prime version played instead of Messi.

No offence to Messi but when he's not up for it everyone can see it and he won't dig deep to pull himself out of a hole he tends to sook.

Probably his only flaw as the GOAT

There is an element that Maradona was type to lead and make those around them better while Messi is the better player but not a leader and relies more on players around him to get the best from him.

Even then Messi across his career has been better than Maradona by far bar that one tournament and it is not even close.

Maradona has the tournament which was probably best individual performance ever but that also involved ridiculous referee decisions and reliant on team mates as well.

 

[Rory]

Great tournament that if played today he?s arguably sent off vs England for his handball, at the very least goal is disallowed and they probably don?t make it through. Maradona then becomes ?a tenacious dribbling genius? but nowhere near the goat conversation. Undoubtedly an all time great World Cup performance but heavy luck involved, not to mention 3 different teammates scoring in the final whereas Messi gets Higuain missing a sitter.

 

[serghei]

There is an element that Maradona was type to lead and make those around them better while Messi is the better player but not a leader and relies more on players around him to get the best from him.

Even then Messi across his career has been better than Maradona by far bar that one tournament and it is not even close.

Maradona has the tournament which was probably best individual performance ever but that also involved ridiculous referee decisions and reliant on team mates as well.

Maradona always said he gave his best when he played with anger, "bronca" he called it. He was angry and when you are angry you usually are at your most motivated and most ambitious. Messi is at the opposite end, way too casual and relaxed most of the time, so it's quite hard for him to get out of this state when the game demands it. That is why he depends more on the people around him than Maradona. We're talking about different personalities and different times.

 

[Batistuta9]

That's why I asked that question yesterday and the reason why I said I try to judge players by how good they were on the pitch. In the 86 world cup, if argentina's 1st goal was disallowed for handball and Argentina got knocked out. Maradona most probably wouldn't be in the conversation for GOAT. But if you look at his career and how he played, how much better he was than everyone else playing at that time, making Napoli beat strong juve and Milan teams, he should probably be in contention for the GOAT anyway.

 

[serghei]

That's why I asked that question yesterday and the reason why I said I try to judge players by how good they were on the pitch. In the 86 world cup, if argentina's 1st goal was disallowed for handball and Argentina got knocked out. Maradona most probably wouldn't be in the conversation for GOAT. But if you look at his career and how he played, how much better he was than everyone else playing at that time, making Napoli beat strong juve and Milan teams, he should probably be in contention for the GOAT anyway.

We don't know for sure. Didn't Maradona score for 2-1 after he dribbled half of England's team. You think he only did that because he scored with his hand first?

 

[JamDav1982]

That's why I asked that question yesterday and the reason why I said I try to judge players by how good they were on the pitch. In the 86 world cup, if argentina's 1st goal was disallowed for handball and Argentina got knocked out. Maradona most probably wouldn't be in the conversation for GOAT. But if you look at his career and how he played, how much better he was than everyone else playing at that time, making Napoli beat strong juve and Milan teams, he should probably be in contention for the GOAT anyway.

Napoli is another hyped up 'myth of Maradona' situation.

They spent big when Maradona came in and replaced near enough whole team.

It was not some league dominated at all times by best in europe either as English league was better before their ban and Hellas Verona had won the league in 1984 led by Elkjaer.

Great achievement to win league but this idea he single handed took relegation threatened Napoli to success in greatest league going is all a bit much.

He also did next to nothing in European Cup for being able to do whatever he wanted on the pitch.

 

[JamDav1982]

We don't know for sure. Didn't Maradona score for 2-1 after he dribbled half of England's team. You think he only did that because he scored with his hand first?

No he made it 2-0 with the wonder goal just after the hand ball and then it went to 2-1 and England missed an absolute sitter from a yard to make it 2-2.

 

[Batistuta9]

We don't know for sure. Didn't Maradona score for 2-1 after he dribbled half of England's team. You think he only did that because he scored with his hand first?

I'm just using that as an example. We will never know if he would have scored the best ever world cup goal if the handball goal wasn't given. But everyone knows goals change games and what they can do for a players confidence. Like Messi's 2nd goals Vs real 2011 semis & Bayern 2015 semis for example.

 

[serghei]

No he made it 2-0 with the wonder goal and then it went to 2-1 and England missed an absolute sitter from a yard to make it 2-2.

OK, but it doesn't change that game could've went either way even without the handball goal.