BarcaOG
Banned
Thomas Muller has a better record H2H against messi both for bayern and germany. so is he better than messi?
surely you see why that metric isnt as indicative as you suggest.
Lionel Messi - v7
- Thread starter Barcaman
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Thomas Muller has a better record H2H against messi both for bayern and germany. so is he better than messi?
surely you see why that metric isnt as indicative as you suggest.
Serghei your Messi opinions are trash please stop. Ronaldo has 1 I?ll repeat 1, I?ll repeat again 1 more UCL than Messi and apparently the gap between them is Ronaldo is a hardworking machine and Messi a piece of shit who doesn?t work hard.
Ronaldo failed plenty of times in the champions league as well you know? Even against Messi, he failed miserably while weak mentality midget scored goals in finals against him, dribbled the whole Real Madrid team in the semi final.
Surely working hard is maintaining a high level all year to win the league instead of being in form for about 2 months a year like Ronaldo?
Ronaldo failed plenty of times in the champions league as well you know? Even against Messi, he failed miserably while weak mentality midget scored goals in finals against him, dribbled the whole Real Madrid team in the semi final.
Surely working hard is maintaining a high level all year to win the league instead of being in form for about 2 months a year like Ronaldo?
KingLeo10
Senior Member
Thomas Muller isn't competing with Messi in individual awards or statistics or legacy.
When there are two heavyweights in any sport vying for all time great status, their H2H matters, although it is not the sole metric.
I can't believe you're resorting to such flawed logic when I'm not trying to convey what you think I'm trying to convey.
BarcaOG
Banned
messi was on the field in the Rome debacle. what did he do about it? did he demonstrate he was the best ever? no.
he was on the field again at anfield. what did he do then? again, nothing. no moment of brilliance. instead, he put his head in his hands and lost his mental fortitude.
he was on the field when bayern demolished us. no, no reaction from messi.
on the other hand, CR scored in basically all of the knockouts he played in, even when his team was eliminated. he didnt put his head in his hands and cried to heaven.
no CR team was humiliated in the CL like messi's barca sides have been, either.
look, im not saying CR is better than messi. he is not. but he is the best CL player ever. he has more CL medals, which surely counts for something, since it is a competition for trophies in the end. he has more CL goals overall. he has FAR MORE knock out goals than messi. those are the goals that count. he has won it with two teams and performed with three.
i really cant see the argument that messi is better in the CL than CR. there is no argument for it. only biased barca fans will try to make that argument.
he was on the field again at anfield. what did he do then? again, nothing. no moment of brilliance. instead, he put his head in his hands and lost his mental fortitude.
he was on the field when bayern demolished us. no, no reaction from messi.
on the other hand, CR scored in basically all of the knockouts he played in, even when his team was eliminated. he didnt put his head in his hands and cried to heaven.
no CR team was humiliated in the CL like messi's barca sides have been, either.
look, im not saying CR is better than messi. he is not. but he is the best CL player ever. he has more CL medals, which surely counts for something, since it is a competition for trophies in the end. he has more CL goals overall. he has FAR MORE knock out goals than messi. those are the goals that count. he has won it with two teams and performed with three.
i really cant see the argument that messi is better in the CL than CR. there is no argument for it. only biased barca fans will try to make that argument.
I think his playing harmony get easily disrupted whenever he notice his team mates (especially at midfield) are doing bad. He started well, but after bayern kept winning the ball and mistakes happened one after another, then the goals coming, he also lost his strength.
Like a worker leaving his home to work, any unpleasant situation in home would make his performance at the work place become bad. Silly analogy, but that's what i have in mind. Like, he already know, everything would not go right if bayern keep terrorizing the back.
Too bad, he's not the engine he used to be. With stamina pre 2013, he could make those pressure, work more to get the ball back, but i think he know his own body situation.
And btw we never know if he's still feeling koulibaly's kick or not.
Like a worker leaving his home to work, any unpleasant situation in home would make his performance at the work place become bad. Silly analogy, but that's what i have in mind. Like, he already know, everything would not go right if bayern keep terrorizing the back.
Too bad, he's not the engine he used to be. With stamina pre 2013, he could make those pressure, work more to get the ball back, but i think he know his own body situation.
And btw we never know if he's still feeling koulibaly's kick or not.
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BarcaOG
Banned
its not flawed logic. im literally using the same metric you're using. you conveniently chose to ignore all the other metrics i suggested and arbitrarily decided that H2H was the one to focus on. my reference to muller is simply to illustrate that that metric is flawed. what is your response to these metrics?:
1. CR was key to all his 5 CL wins. Messi was key to 3 of his 4 wins. his first win, in 2006, was led by ronalindho, etoo, and deco.
2. CR has more goals in the CL than messi.
3. of course, that wouldnt count for much if CR had scored all these in the group stage, but, in fact, CR has over 30 more knockout goals than messi.
4. CR has 1 more CL medal than messi. this isnt a massive advantage, but it counts--surely?
what is your response to these? at various times both messi and CR were supported by strong teams; it isnt like one has had a better team the whole time.
KingLeo10
Senior Member
This is textbook United fan language. Both his United and RM teams were great. If Messi moved on from the great Barca side of 08-15 to another great European side last 5 years, he'd have 1 more CL.
And his performance with Juve hasn't been all that.
You can make a pretty good argument of CR7 > Messi in CL based on KO goals but the "he's done it in 3 leagues" is nonsense.
JohnN
Senior Member
You can clearly see here, were agendas from justified criticism get separated..
Many people in the forum, criticise Leo for his shortcomings this year and for example 2017.. many arguments are really solid.
But then some, add to the argument that he controls the club thus hindering our progress.. (a club like barca were everyone is Barto's puppets). Ok. It's unproven but I'll bite.
Then some others, add to that, lowball arguments with no backing up, about his work ethic as an athlete.
Anyone who doesn't see it takes amazing determination and drive to stay on this level for so much time, at this point is at least negatively biased.
Then we proceed with those who go along and lower his status as a GOAT of the sport.
There is no end to the trash talking after that. Every single thing is just negative with the occasional "he is a great player but"
I am ok with all the valid criticism he gets. But cannot stand this garbage in here.
Many people in the forum, criticise Leo for his shortcomings this year and for example 2017.. many arguments are really solid.
But then some, add to the argument that he controls the club thus hindering our progress.. (a club like barca were everyone is Barto's puppets). Ok. It's unproven but I'll bite.
Then some others, add to that, lowball arguments with no backing up, about his work ethic as an athlete.
Anyone who doesn't see it takes amazing determination and drive to stay on this level for so much time, at this point is at least negatively biased.
Then we proceed with those who go along and lower his status as a GOAT of the sport.
There is no end to the trash talking after that. Every single thing is just negative with the occasional "he is a great player but"
I am ok with all the valid criticism he gets. But cannot stand this garbage in here.
BarcaOG
Banned
counter factual. messi didnt, CR has, and what has happened has happened. what ifs are not arguments.
CR's CL performances with juve have been better than messi's with barca in the same period. he scored home and away against ajax, even though juve was eliminated. he also scored a hattrick from 2-0 to move juve to the next round. messi has NEVER inspired a barcelona comeback in the CL. the PSG remontada was mostly neymar's.
CR scored 2 against lyon. yes he was poor away in france. messi did nothing at all while bayern trashed us. so yes, CR's juve performances havent been phenomenal, but theyve been better than messi's for barca in the same period.
messi is a better league player than CR. no doubt about it. ronaldo is a better CL player than messi. i dont see how that is not the case.
KingLeo10
Senior Member
No matter what happens from here on (whether he wins another CL or not), he's never going to fall below one of the greatest players of all time for anyone with a brain, simply based on his performance at a peak that lasted about a decade.
It's similar to how people refer to Guardiola as a fraud (not jokingly but in serious conversation) when his Barca tenure alone is enough to secure him one of the greatest managers ever tag.
KingLeo10
Senior Member
Messi and CR7's performances last 2 years in CL:
Messi destroyed Lyon that beat CR7 with 2 goals. His 2 goals were better than CR7's penalty and a great goal.
Messi destroyed United with 2 goals.
Messi won us the Camp Nou leg against eventual champions Liverpool with 2 goals.
Messi played a big part in beating Napoli with a goal and basically all productivity in the home leg.
Messi no showed v Bayern who are several levels above the Lyon that knocked out CR7. This is where the criticism is fair but if you believe CR7 and Juve wouldn't have gotten folded for 4-5 goals at least, you need reassessment.
You tell me how Messi hasn't been objectively better than CR7 in the last 2 seasons in the CL. Progressed farther and had more production.
Just because it doesn't suit your narrative of "why didn't Messi engineer a comeback" doesn't mean that's the sole criterion for judging greatness. Comebacks happen when you're down in the first place. You give too much value to narratives.
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khaled_a_d
Senior Member
It is an argument.
Football is a game that loyalty is appreciated.
Messi staying and doing it with his own team must be appreciated more than a guy bouncing around for 3 elite teams.
You can't punish a player for something you want players to do.
It is like saying Lebron/Kawhi is better than MJ if they won title with 3rd team because MJ only did it wuth one.
Also, in what world was CR7 better player than Messi last CL?
soul24rage
Senior Member
That's not true.
He did vs Milan at home in 2013
He also indirectly helped lift the mood vs PSG at home in 2013 as well.
jairzinho
Senior Member
So then what does that say about his captaincy and leadership?
raskolnikov
Well-known member
When has messi ever been saved like Ronaldo in
Finals alone Ronaldo been saved by Van der Sar in 08, Ramos in 14, team by penalties vs Atletico and Bale the last time.
We need to take in semi finals to add in one Iniesta go asl for Messi.
Same with Argentina in a way.
Finals alone Ronaldo been saved by Van der Sar in 08, Ramos in 14, team by penalties vs Atletico and Bale the last time.
We need to take in semi finals to add in one Iniesta go asl for Messi.
Same with Argentina in a way.
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