Lionel "The Greatest of All Time" Messi V2

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Maradona37

Well-known member
vegitot said:
Zidane joined Juventus (UCL champion and Serie A winner). They won two consecutive Serie A and reached 3 consecutive UCL finals from 1996-98. Clearly a dominant team (strongest team in Italy at that time).

Then he joined Galacticos, also won Laliga and UCL before his arrival. Another strong and wealthy side.

So he all played for strongest, wealthiest teams. Not like he played for Granada or Elche.
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I know they were dominant and I made that point. Just saying that top teams at the time didn't lord it over the rest of the league quite as much as top teams do now.

Tbh I am probably just making excuses for his lack of success at club level as I am such a fan of his as a player. No doubt France NT is his crowning glory as a player.
 
V

vegitot

Senior Member
Maradona37 said:
I know they were dominant and I made that point. Just saying that top teams at the time didn't lord it over the rest of the league quite as much as top teams do now.

Tbh I am probably just making excuses for his lack of success at club level as I am such a fan of his as a player. No doubt France NT is his crowning glory as a player.
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I'm not sure about that. Milan dominated 90s Serie A from 1990-1996 (with exception of Sambrodia and Juventus), then Juventus dominated in late 90s. Only during Zidane last 3 seasons with Juve, there were more balance. Also he went three straight empty hand seasons with Juventus during that period.

Early 2000s was a dark time for Barca. So Zidane did not compete agaisnt strong Barca during his two first seasons with RM. When Barca started to return, he again went three straight empty hand seasons (2003/04 to 2005/06).
 
M

Maradona37

Well-known member
vegitot said:
I'm not sure about that. Milan dominated 90s Serie A from 1990-1996 (with exception of Sambrodia and Juventus), then Juventus dominated in late 90s. Only during Zidane last 3 seasons with Juve, there were more balance. Also he went three straight empty hand seasons with Juventus during that period.

Early 2000s was a dark time for Barca. So Zidane did not compete agaisnt strong Barca during his two first seasons with RM. When Barca started to return, he again went three straight empty hand seasons (2003/04 to 2005/06).
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Fair enough - really good points. Tbh I am quite deep into this 'with the internet era the top players have become concentrated in fewer teams' mantra so maybe I am undervaluing how often it happened even pre Messi and Ronaldo. I am always willing to admit I might be wrong.

Fair point in Barca, but to be fair the likes of Deportivo and Villarreal filled the void a bit at the time if I recall correctly (might have been pre Zidane signing though).

I think what might be telling is if we look at different points gaps - like between first and second, between top and bottom etc, for top leagues in the 90s, 2000s and 2010s and 2020s. Stuff like that could give us much more information, but it is a lot of work. We could then see whether competitiveness has got worse as I was saying.

But overall I think you're probably making very good points and I am probably just making excuses for ZZ.
 
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vegitot

Senior Member
Maradona37 said:
Fair enough - really good points. Tbh I am quite deep into this 'with the internet era the top players have become concentrated in fewer teams' mantra so maybe I am undervaluing how often it happened even pre Messi and Ronaldo. I am always willing to admit I might be wrong.

Fair point in Barca, but to be fair the likes of Deportivo and Villarreal filled the void a bit at the time if I recall correctly (might have been pre Zidane signing though).

I think what might be telling is if we look at different points gaps - like between first and second, between top and bottom etc, for top leagues in the 90s, 2000s and 2010s and 2020s. Stuff like that could give us much more information, but it is a lot of work. We could then see whether competitiveness has got worse as I was saying.

But overall I think you're probably making very good points and I am probably just making excuses for ZZ.
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Tbf Serie A was bit more competitive in late 90s (Zidane's time) than early/mid 90s. With the rise of Inter, Lazio, Roma or even Parma. Milan declined a lot during that period though.

Valencia were more of a force in that time. However there were difference between a normal opponent and your archrival. Here was Barca. The raise of Laporta's Barca mean the end of Perez first Galacticos.

Btw, you said about of Zidane playing in current days. Which role/position do you think he would play? I remember when he first arrived to Juventus, Lippi wanted and trained him to play as a 8 or similiar in three man midfield setup, it didn't work cause Zidane's lack of defensive ability and his sluggish. Only when he was given a 10 role with more freedome, he started to shine (he was still often sluggish but could do spectacular stuffs).
 
M

Maradona37

Well-known member
vegitot said:
Tbf Serie A was bit more competitive in late 90s (Zidane's time) than early/mid 90s. With the rise of Inter, Lazio, Roma or even Parma. Milan declined a lot during that period though.

Valencia were more of a force in that time. However there were difference between a normal opponent and your archrival. Here was Barca. The raise of Laporta's Barca mean the end of Perez first Galacticos.

Btw, you said about of Zidane playing in current days. Which role/position do you think he would play? I remember when he first arrived to Juventus, Lippi wanted and trained him to play as a 8 or similiar in three man midfield setup, it didn't work cause Zidane's lack of defensive ability and his sluggish. Only when he was given a 10 role with more freedome, he started to shine (he was still often sluggish but could do spectacular stuffs).
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Yeah true, it was a little inconsistent then - teams seemed to dominate for a period and then be supplanted by a completely new team for a while. We saw that at times in the 80s as well - Serie A in the 80s might well be the strongest most competitive league ever, at least for a good number of years in that decade.

I think it's just splitting hairs really - I do think it's less competitive now, but I am probably overestimating the extent of that AND I am willing to admit I might be mistaken by looking at different league tables from the past and comparing them to the present. It's really the concentration of player talent in teams like Messi and Ronaldo's Barca and RM respectively, and Man City in England, that has given me that impression. As well as the top five leagues powering away and leaving traditional powerhouses in smaller leagues with nothing (Ajax, Benfica etc). You could even argue this happens between top 5 leagues - the decline of Serie A is shown in the decline of Milan and their paucity of CL winners since 2010. However, Zidane's days were hardly the 70s - they weren't long before Messi and Ronaldo and the Bosman ruling (the key thing in less competition since then) was already in effect in the late 90s and early 2000s so overall you're very likely right and I am overselling the respective gap in competitiveness between eras.

As for his position in the modern game - I think he would have to play as a number 10, but with so many teams playing 433 now the playmaking number 10 seems like a more rare thing. I am not sure a player like Zidane really fits into the modern game, with its obsession with pressing, athleticism etc. Of course when he got on the ball he could destroy teams. Like you say he was sluggish and seemed slow (though I'd argue he was a master at making the game play at his speed, like the best players tend to be). I think in this era with the athleticism he'd maybe find it harder. But in terms of talent he'd be second only to Messi in this era. But there's every chance he'd be a misunderstood genius. To be fair this goes even more for a player like Riquelme, who really did need an entire team built around him to get the most out of his passing and playmaking game.

Anyway, jamrock thinks we shouldn't be debating this here so could maybe ask a mod to move these posts to the Zidane thread?
 
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vegitot

Senior Member
Maradona37 said:
Yeah true, it was a little inconsistent then - teams seemed to dominate for a period and then be supplanted by a completely new team for a while. We saw that at times in the 80s as well - Serie A in the 80s might well be the strongest most competitive league ever, at least for a good number of years in that decade.

I think it's just splitting hairs really - I do think it's less competitive now, but I am probably overestimating the extent of that AND I am willing to admit I might be mistaken by looking at different league tables from the past and comparing them to the present. It's really the concentration of player talent in teams like Messi and Ronaldo's Barca and RM respectively, and Man City in England, that has given me that impression. As well as the top five leagues powering away and leaving traditional powerhouses in smaller leagues with nothing (Ajax, Benfica etc). You could even argue this happens between top 5 leagues - the decline of Serie A is shown in the decline of Milan and their paucity of CL winners since 2010. However, Zidane's days were hardly the 70s - they weren't long before Messi and Ronaldo and the Bosman ruling (the key thing in less competition since then) was already in effect in the late 90s and early 2000s so overall you're very likely right and I am overselling the respective gap in competitiveness between eras.

As for his position in the modern game - I think he would have to play as a number 10, but with so many teams playing 433 now the playmaking number 10 seems like a more rare thing. I am not sure a player like Zidane really fits into the modern game, with its obsession with pressing, athleticism etc. Of course when he got on the ball he could destroy teams. Like you say he was sluggish and seemed slow (though I'd argue he was a master at making the game play at his speed, like the best players tend to be). I think in this era with the athleticism he'd maybe find it harder. But in terms of talent he'd be second only to Messi in this era. But there's every chance he'd be a misunderstood genius. To be fair this goes even more for a player like Riquelme, who really did need an entire team built around him to get the most out of his passing and playmaking game.

Anyway, jamrock thinks we shouldn't be debating this here so could maybe ask a mod to move these posts to the Zidane thread?
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Yeah like you wrote, Zdiane likely would play as a 10 in today game. Sort of similiar to Messi. We also see more and more of number 10 now. He also likely has to press and defend more. And maybe less of a shownman (Zidane liked to do thing in artistic manner).

Messi and Zidane talked about this matter

Also said how pity that they could not play together. Though i feel they might step on each other if that happened. Both like free roam and centre. Maybe Zidane would play in Iniesta's role.
 
M

Maradona37

Well-known member
vegitot said:
Yeah like you wrote, Zdiane likely would play as a 10 in today game. Sort of similiar to Messi. We also see more and more of number 10 now. He also likely has to press and defend more. And maybe less of a shownman (Zidane liked to do thing in artistic manner).

Messi and Zidane talked about this matter

Also said how pity that they could not play together. Though i feel they might step on each other if that happened. Both like free roam and centre. Maybe Zidane would play in Iniesta's role.
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Thanks for that link - I will look at it later. They're two of my favourite ever players so will be good to see them interacting.

I know what you mean about them maybe being in each other's way if they played together - a lot of times people think you just throw the best players together like it's FIFA, but there's so so many examples of teams being better when they have more balance and aren't full of superstars who don't gel well or have chemistry. You never know how it would go though. Zidane could play Iniesta's role but I feel Iniesta was better defensively and more disciplined (though that comes with the caveat that, if Zidane was playing for Barca under Guardiola, he'd be molded into a different player anyway than he was in his era and showed how to be better defensively).

Like you say he'd have to do more of the donkey work these days. Far lower level but if you look at someone like James Maddison, he is great on the half-turn and pretty good at dribbling in tight spaces, which opens up numerical advantages. Zidane did that but miles better than Maddison. But what Maddison also does is get involved in pressing and doing the dirty work, defending as a team, and that's something Zidane (and other players of his era like Ronaldinho) would have to adapt to in this era of more cohesive team play.

I guess it all comes back to that thread and the general debate about there being less flair in football in general now. You can make the argument that the game is more coached now, but you could also make the argument that it is precisely that coaching that makes pulling off the outrageous difficult and maybe Ronaldinho and Zidane and so on wouldn't get the space and joy they did back then. Note, I am not saying that I subscribe to that theory, but it's an argument some make and I do believe it has some merit. Of course the counter argument is these guys were absolute geniuses and would thrive in any era, and that they'd find ways of 'breaking the game' in this tactical era. It can go both ways.

Great debate, cheers.
 
V

vegitot

Senior Member
Maradona37 said:
Thanks for that link - I will look at it later. They're two of my favourite ever players so will be good to see them interacting.

I know what you mean about them maybe being in each other's way if they played together - a lot of times people think you just throw the best players together like it's FIFA, but there's so so many examples of teams being better when they have more balance and aren't full of superstars who don't gel well or have chemistry. You never know how it would go though. Zidane could play Iniesta's role but I feel Iniesta was better defensively and more disciplined (though that comes with the caveat that, if Zidane was playing for Barca under Guardiola, he'd be molded into a different player anyway than he was in his era and showed how to be better defensively).

Like you say he'd have to do more of the donkey work these days. Far lower level but if you look at someone like James Maddison, he is great on the half-turn and pretty good at dribbling in tight spaces, which opens up numerical advantages. Zidane did that but miles better than Maddison. But what Maddison also does is get involved in pressing and doing the dirty work, defending as a team, and that's something Zidane (and other players of his era like Ronaldinho) would have to adapt to in this era of more cohesive team play.

I guess it all comes back to that thread and the general debate about there being less flair in football in general now. You can make the argument that the game is more coached now, but you could also make the argument that it is precisely that coaching that makes pulling off the outrageous difficult and maybe Ronaldinho and Zidane and so on wouldn't get the space and joy they did back then. Note, I am not saying that I subscribe to that theory, but it's an argument some make and I do believe it has some merit. Of course the counter argument is these guys were absolute geniuses and would thrive in any era, and that they'd find ways of 'breaking the game' in this tactical era. It can go both ways.

Great debate, cheers.
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They would combine very well and have great chemistry (does not mean their team would win everything though). Messi during his long career has formed great chemistry with lots of technical gifted players. He would have done the same with Zidane too. Could be two number 10 formation (like when Pep used two false 9 in Messi and Fabregas and Barca played the most ridiculous football ever).

Btw, here is Messi and Maradona playing together. Just a charity match but you can see how two genius combined. Too easy.
 
M

Maradona37

Well-known member
vegitot said:
They would combine very well and have great chemistry (does not mean their team would win everything though). Messi during his long career has formed great chemistry with lots of technical gifted players. He would have done the same with Zidane too. Could be two number 10 formation (like when Pep used two false 9 in Messi and Fabregas and Barca played the most ridiculous football ever).

Btw, here is Messi and Maradona playing together. Just a charity match but you can see how two genius combined. Too easy.
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Aye I have saw that video before, was amazing to see even if Maradona was old and just a charity match.

Yeah I know what you mean about Messi and Zizou. They likely would combine very well, especially as you say because Messi is a very smart player (and so was Zidane) and they'd know when to link up, which spaces to occupy etc.

For me it was more a general statement that filling a team with geniuses doesn't always work for the best, as it can affect balance. See the three of them at PSG a few seasons ago, and then PSG were getting overrun in midfield because forwards weren't tracking back.
 
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