Lionel "The Greatest of All Time" Messi

[OGbarca]

also i want to understand how it is that bringing up reason- and evidence based arguments about messis non performance in important matches over the past 3-4 years is 'trolling'

im not making hyperbolic claims about messi being poor overall, comprehensively, career-wide; nor am i trying to be clever or cunning; nor am i attacking his character as a person or as a professional

it seems to me that on your view any view of messi that is even slightly critical is 'trolling' while on the other hand maintaining that messi is effective against Real despite losing 9 matches in a row against them with 0 GA is not trolling

dont really understand tbh

 

[OGbarca]

him not missing the penalty doesn't mean things would have panned out the same way they did. have you looked into your crystal ball and seen that?

going by this logic they would have been 3-3 on aggregate and match would have went in extra time. since real had the momentum on their side after returning from 0-3 down, tie might have ended with them winning anyway. so again a team fails with Messi playing for them, right?

ending the first match 2-0 puts PSG on a much more solid footing for the second leg away from home. assuming mbappe scores in the bernabeu a 3-0 is even better.

a penalty is an important opportunity to put your team ahead especially in KO tournaments where aggregate score decides ties. you cant simply wave away the fact that messi failed his team and let himself down by missing that pk (it was a very poorly taken penalty that even messi supporters like KL said was below par)

in a PK the attacker always has an advantage over the keeper and should be judged more harshly for missing than is a GK for failing to save


seems straight forward to me that a missed KO PK is important

 

[Messigician]

[MENTION=12859]Alik[/MENTION] i want to know if youre going to enforce the rules objectively when it comes to disrespectful ways to addressing other forum members [MENTION=2]Barcaman[/MENTION] we cant have this kind of double standards

Alik banned you? He's a good mod but a big Messi fan, it's best not to get too heated in Messi thread

 

[malvolio]

ending the first match 2-0 puts PSG on a much more solid footing for the second leg away from home. assuming mbappe scores in the bernabeu a 3-0 is even better.

a penalty is an important opportunity to put your team ahead especially in KO tournaments where aggregate score decides ties. you cant simply wave away the fact that messi failed his team and let himself down by missing that pk (it was a very poorly taken penalty that even messi supporters like KL said was below par)

in a PK the attacker always has an advantage over the keeper and should be judged more harshly for missing than is a GK for failing to save


seems straight forward to me that a missed KO PK is important

so you base your theory on assumptions. i also can assume that they wouldn't have won the tie anyway since real just came back from 0-3 to take it to extra time at home, against a crumbling PSG.

yes, missing PK was important. is that why they got eliminated? no.

this is just like the theory about dembele losing us the liverpool tie with his first leg misses. at most it would have ended 4-0, a result which liverpool overturned anyway and would have went to ET at home, against a crumbling barcelona who were shipping goals left and right. but it's another theory based on assumptions.

 

[Rassvet]

Cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

I'd wager the superior football we're playing has more to do with the superior coach and system than the absence or presence of Messi.

Whether Messi would hamper or contribute to this current system is another question that has nothing to do with the question of whether he was "the" issue in the past.

I agree that the superior system has a lot to do with these performances. However, the catch is that it hasn’t been possible to play that system with Messi for the last five or so years.

 

[KingLeo10]

I agree that the superior system has a lot to do with these performances. However, the catch is that it hasn?t been possible to play that system with Messi for the last five or so years.

No chance. Messi in 18/19 was 80% of prime Messi level (21/22 is like 10% of prime Messi by comparison ) . He was working hard off the ball (for Messi standards), scoring goal plus a game, had 20 assists, and still had the ability to beat his man on a consistent basis. Still had most (80%-ish) of his pace and acceleration too.

Messi post Anfield is a different Messi. Probably because the defeat jaded him at the club level, and he stopped masking his physical decline with extra motivation. But he was at a supreme level in 18/19, capable of playing in any team in the world in any system. 19/20 he took a big step back, 20/21 he had a second wind for Argentina, and 21/22, he's done at the top level.

If you were objective, this is how you would see it. But you would rather give EV the benefit of the doubt (despite him being still unemployed) than give Messi props for his actual gameplay in 18/19 for example.

 

[Rassvet]

Typical strawman.

Didn’t say Messi wasn’t great in 2018/19 but that he didn’t fit the type of 433 system Barca is using now which is true and why EV used more of a 442.

 

[KingLeo10]

Typical strawman.

Didn’t say Messi wasn’t great in 2018/19 but that he didn’t fit the type of 433 system Barca is using now which is true and why EV used more of a 442.

Typical blindness to EV to begin with...

The bolded assumes that EV made the correct decision and that it was a purely tactical decision to enable the "system player" Messi to succeed (how arrogant ) What makes you so sure Messi wouldn't be able to play a 4-3-3 (I actually don't see drastic differences between how he played from 2010-2011 to 2013-2014 and how he played in 2018-2019; 2014-2015 he played more as a right winger but that was an exception).

The fact that we lost our left winger/forward and the one we got was perma-injured had a lot to do with the 4-4-2 also, wouldn't you say? Also that we had a decayed midfield and that EV is a conservative manager to begin with.

 

[Morten]

Isn't it obvious by now why 4-3-3 isn't ideal for a team with Messi in it?

He doesn't stick to the flank, he goes central, meaning the width has to be covered by the fullback instead, which again leads to other issues.

EV didn't play 4-4-2 "for the lulz", he did it for a reason.

I guess if you play Messi as false 9, then he doesn't have to operate on the flank, but then you don't have a "real" striker.

 

[KingLeo10]

Isn't it obvious by now why 4-3-3 isn't ideal for a team with Messi in it?

He doesn't stick to the flank, he goes central, meaning the width has to be covered by the fullback instead, which again leads to other issues.

EV didn't play 4-4-2 "for the lulz", he did it for a reason.

There is a difference between 18/19 Messi (with his dribbling and finishing abilities being at ~80% of his prime level) compared to 2021-2022 Messi playing a 4-3-3, which most agree he can't. Because he is physically done and doesn't have the same shooting/dribbling abilities.

But as usual, you completely miss the nuance of the argument, and chime in with your usual low effort take when it comes to EV. Work on your jinxing game again, because it sure didn't work well yesterday

 

[DonAK]

It's not just about the system.

Barcelona kept loading up the team with slow midfielders and forwards. If we had signed quicker players in both departments it would have suited Messi a lot more. You need runners who can cover space and can attack space with speed.

We had neither and that just exacerbated the problems we faced. It wouldn't have mattered if you removed Messi from those teams as those issues would still exist. We were by far the slowest top team in Europe under the Ernie & Setien years.

 

[malvolio]

It's not just about the system.

Barcelona kept loading up the team with slow midfielders and forwards. If we had signed quicker players in both departments it would have suited Messi a lot more. You need runners who can cover space and can attack space with speed.

We had neither and that just exacerbated the problems we faced. It wouldn't have mattered if you removed Messi from those teams as those issues would still exist. We were by far the slowest top team in Europe under the Ernie & Setien years.

not only slowest, but with many players who were either not fitting or plain poor. also worth to mention the managers we had, valverde being the decent one tbf. setien and koeman were terrible.

 

[DonAK]

Bartomeu, Robert Fernandez and Eric Abidal more or less destroyed the team with extremely poor recruitment. Valverde was nothing special as a manager. He's a good manager but not great so he managed to hide some of the issues to a certain degree but they were more or less exposed later anyway vs. Roma and Liverpool. He wasn't great enough to counter that nor lucky enough for our President and SDs to actually sign some players who would fit the team.

Ernie was and is a good manager, but he's not great, but he was also unlucky that Neymar decided to ditch the team and our board and management were incompetent as fuck.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

If you were objective, this is how you would see it. But you would rather give EV the benefit of the doubt (despite him being still unemployed) than give Messi props for his actual gameplay in 18/19 for example.

pls no digs against EV

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

It's not just about the system.

Barcelona kept loading up the team with slow midfielders and forwards. If we had signed quicker players in both departments it would have suited Messi a lot more. You need runners who can cover space and can attack space with speed.

We had neither and that just exacerbated the problems we faced. It wouldn't have mattered if you removed Messi from those teams as those issues would still exist. We were by far the slowest top team in Europe under the Ernie & Setien years.

Agree these days you need pace. Liverpool and Bayern are showing how to play on top level.

The fact that the team doesn't work with Messi is due to Messi himself, you could see very often this season how PSG played fast and had to stop again and again because Messi waved his hand from behind and demanded the ball instead of running into the penalty area.

Would Barca be stronger with peak Messi? Yes. With current Messi? Definitely no.