Luis Enrique

[DinhoR10]

Barca probably has the best defense in europe right now. Thats what got us past Real in the league. Unlike alot of people I don't think its our attack that has got us this far, I believe its Pique's form that started it all. Half the work in the match is over if you're not conceding.

 

[DrPepper]

Since you are provoking me.

This is what you said back then:

Doesn't matter. Champions League is more about defensive stability in the later stages and Barca obviously doesn't have that. Atletico Madrid, Dortmund, Chelsea, Bayern and Real Madrid would surely win against us in a two-legged tie.

And this is what I said, there and then:

This statement should be saved for later examination.

Don't say you did not ask for it.

Tbf Barca hasn't yet met any of those teams in the CL Thus it's still possible for me to be right, although it's clear we're a much better side compared to back then.

So not a lurker, but instead Schumi who people said is the second account of dalitis8?

 

[StarLord]

There are studies showing that managers do not have as much of an influence as always thought, kind of breaking a conventional wisdom there. Then again, this does not mean that he is useless. I think basic statistical regressions can show quite a lot, yet in social sciences, one has to be careful with those regressions as there is much more a manager has to do etc. then really included in linear regression models.

I still think that Pep's influence and his leadership, rigor and work ethic was needed a lot back in 2008. Stating that world football was not as good than is kinda underestimating what this team has achieved within those years. Most of that is based on the talents one has at hand and Barca were gifted with the best players one could possibly imagine. Yet again, a paradigm in world football was broken: people tought that phsyical strength is more important than technical ability as well as intelligence. We outsmarted almost every team, including all world class teams by then, this was not only because of superb players but also because a certain kind of play was re-introduced and superbly implemented. This is due to Pep and his predecessors.

Then again, the Champions League shows that there is much more luck involved than in a normal league setting. While the league is a great marathon where really the best team is awarded with the crown, the Champions League's design is especially prone to more luck, which makes it also so exciting. If you think Pep didn't manage to win against an allegedly poor Chelsea side (Heyncke did not either) back in 2012, just check back how many chances we had to score. (Alexis, Cesc, Messi's penalty etc.)

Pep has shown to win against Mou more than one time and with different teams, he's track record 1on1 against Mou is pretty oustanding actually! Then again, it takes a lot for a manager to kick Ronaldinho, Eto'o etc. out, call the youngest player the new leader. Remember Tata being "consulted" by Xavi for a more controlled game when Tata wanted to change some things...

Pep is no saint, but he is surely amongst the top managers out there!

Some thoughts on your very interesting post.


a) Managers are not as influential as most fans/pundits tend to believe (or pretend to do believe)

I have been saying this for ages! Managers are the most overrated aspect of football by far. The psychological reasons behind this are all too obvious

b) Does this mean they are useless?

No! It's just that we should for other, more vitals factors first.

c) Pep no doubt had a significant influence on the earth-shattering revolution that his astonishingly beautiful side brought to world football.

While I definitely agree, the ridiculous talent at his disposal was the fundamental factor. Pep's brilliance would have been absolutely impossible without the embarrassing talents at his disposal. He had a young, fledgling and hungry Messi primed for world supremacy. Had the best midfield due the world has and will ever see. A Road Runner cartoon in the form of a RB in Daniel Alves. A world-class striker in Eto'o, the great Henry's last good season, a warrior in Puyol, and Pique and Busquets also coming to the fore. The last two, are to a great degree thanks to his promotion of them.

d) League football also involves lots of luck. Ref decisions can influence a league's course (say hi capital club) Narrow margins are not only found in the CL, but also in the league, especially between us and Real (last year Atleti as well) where the difference in points is almost always very small. Luck can definitely sway a league title as well, especially if it is between us and Real.

e) Alexis, Cesc, Pedro and Busquets (for those who remember) all missed sitters in that disastrous game at the Bridge a few years back. If we had any one of Neymar or Suarez (let alone both) Chelsea would have been annihilated from the first half.

So I agree with you on that one too.

f) Yes, Pep owns Mou, and that is a good thing for football.

 

[StarLord]

Tbf Barca hasn't yet met any of those teams in the CL Thus it's still possible for me to be right, although it's clear we're a much better side compared to back then.

So not a lurker, but instead Schumi who people said is the second account of dalitis8?

No, you are already horrifically wrong, since some of those teams have been already embarrassed in the CL while we are still going strong. We have also beaten some of those teams you have mentioned and are ahead of them in the league. We have also been the best performing team in Europe by far for quite some time, and we have also knocked out the strongest opponents in the CL while others (the teams you were certain were so superior to us) have been drawing mickey mouse sides.

Just admit you were wrong, that I was right, and stop deflecting the issue.

 

[DrPepper]

No, you are already horrifically wrong, since some of those teams have been already embarrassed in the CL while we are still going strong. We have also beaten some of those teams you have mentioned and are ahead of them in the league. We have also been the best performing team in Europe by far for quite some time, and we have also knocked out the strongest opponents in the CL while others (the teams you were certain were so superior to us) have been drawing mickey mouse sides.

Just admit you were wrong, that I was right, and stop deflecting the issue.

What's your point? I already said that we've become a much better team as the season progressed. The only way my statement is 100% wrong is if we happen to face any of those teams I mentioned in the CL(!) and beat them. Until now it's neither wrong or right.

Just because Team A > Team B doesn't mean A > C even when B > C. Not in football.

 

[StarLord]

What's your point? I already said that we've become a much better team as the season progressed. The only way my statement is 100% wrong is if we happen to face any of those teams I mentioned in the CL(!) and beat them. Until now it's neither wrong or right.

Just because Team A > Team B doesn't mean A > C even when B > C. Not in football.

Let me get this str8:

You believe that your assertion that for example Borussia Dortmund a team that is 9th in the 3rd best league in Europe, a team that was hammered 6-2 on aggregate by Juventus -in the same Champions League where their alleged "defensive solidity"- would hold the upper hand against us (cross that, would surely eliminate us) who are leaders of the best league in Europe and have the best big-game record on the continent by some astronomical distance? You think that is still valid?

The question under discussion back then, was not whether Team A can beat Team B in hypothetical ties, but whether FC Barcelona could win the CL. You said that there was zero chance of that happening because at least 5 teams would definitely beat us! A few of those teams have flopped badly, while we have soared, and even those that are still in are performing at a lower level vis a vis Barca.

Now, considering all of the above, you still think that subsequent events have not invalidated your predictions/claims?

You now try to excuse yourself by saying:

I already said that we've become a much better team as the season progressed.

How was it that you could not (back then) allow for the possibility that a team with Messi/Neymar/Suarez + all the others could improve? You did not even attempt at making some kind of qualification or allow for such a possibility!

We all get things wrong sometimes, there is nothing wrong with that, but we should at least have the courage to admit it when it (inevitably) happens.

 

[Barcaman]

Also, we already beat Atleti over two legs, albeit in Copa.

Guy was wrong, like many others, nothing to it.

 

[DrPepper]

Let me get this str8:

You believe that your assertion that for example Borussia Dortmund a team that is 9th in the 3rd best league in Europe, a team that was hammered 6-2 on aggregate by Juventus -in the same Champions League where their alleged "defensive solidity"- would hold the upper hand against us (cross that, would surely eliminate us) who are leaders of the best league in Europe and have the best big-game record on the continent by some astronomical distance? You think that is still valid?

The question under discussion back then, was not whether Team A can beat Team B in hypothetical ties, but whether FC Barcelona could win the CL. You said that there was zero chance of that happening because at least 5 teams would definitely beat us! A few of those teams have flopped badly, while we have soared, and even those that are still in are performing at a lower level vis a vis Barca.

Now, considering all of the above, you still think that subsequent events have not invalidated your predictions/claims?

You now try to excuse yourself by saying:



How was it that you could not (back then) allow for the possibility that a team with Messi/Neymar/Suarez + all the others could improve? You did not even attempt at making some kind of qualification or allow for such a possibility!

We all get things wrong sometimes, there is nothing wrong with that, but we should at least have the courage to admit it when it (inevitably) happens.

I never said that those teams would still beat us _now_, mind you. Also this doesn't exclude us winning the CL because we could have, for example, met other teams in later stages that I haven't included, like Paris or City.

My statement was a hypothetical one in the case we'd meet those teams in the moment I made that very statement (read: 6th November 2014, 08:32 PM), with the way we were playing then - which was unsatisfying. At that point my personal evaluation of for example Real or Dortmund was different compared to now too. And there was also no "best big game record by astronomical distance" in Nov 2014. It is not about who progresses further, but what would happen if those teams were happen to face each other at that point.

Feel free to interpret it however you want it to, but stop putting words in my mouth. It's not that difficult to understand. lol

 

[mssarm]

I never said that those teams would still beat us _now_, mind you. Also this doesn't exclude us winning the CL because we could have, for example, met other teams in later stages that I haven't included, like Paris or City.

My statement was a hypothetical one in the case we'd meet those teams in the moment I made that very statement (read: 6th November 2014, 08:32 PM), with the way we were playing then - which was unsatisfying. At that point my personal evaluation of for example Real or Dortmund was different compared to now too. And there was also no "best big game record by astronomical distance" in Nov 2014. It is not about who progresses further, but what would happen if those teams were happen to face each other at that point.

Feel free to interpret it however you want it to, but stop putting words in my mouth. It's not that difficult to understand. lol

You talk about lack of defensive stability at "later stages". Care to explain ?

 

[StarLord]

I never said that those teams would still beat us _now_, mind you. Also this doesn't exclude us winning the CL because we could have, for example, met other teams in later stages that I haven't included, like Paris or City.

My statement was a hypothetical one in the case we'd meet those teams in the moment I made that very statement (read: 6th November 2014, 08:32 PM), with the way we were playing then - which was unsatisfying. At that point my personal evaluation of for example Real or Dortmund was different compared to now too. And there was also no "best big game record by astronomical distance" in Nov 2014. It is not about who progresses further, but what would happen if those teams were happen to face each other at that point.

Feel free to interpret it however you want it to, but stop putting words in my mouth. It's not that difficult to understand. lol

But like I said in my post, the discussion was over whether we had a chance of winning the CL. Your verdict was that we had zero chances, because all of those 5 teams would definitely beat us due to their superior defensive stability.

So, you obviously failed to foresee that teams like Chelsea and Dortmund (apparently defensive stability monsters according to you) would be unceremoniously knocked out of the competition by apparently less defensively stable sides such as Juventus and PSG that did not make it to your list.

You also failed to see that we would absolutely own Atletico wherever we met them, or that we could also beat Real Madrid. Not in the CL, but we still beat them.

You also claim that when you make that prediction it all seemed very rational. Well was it really? Was our team so bad in the first couple months of the season? I really do not think so. We had lots of wins, with great performances from Leo and Ney, and we also had a certain Luis Suarez to look forward to. We had a narrow defeat away to PSG (3-2, a good result if it were a two-legged tie)

Moreover, anyone who has been following Barcelona in recent years would know that we tend to start slowly most of our seasons. This definitely holds true for our CL-winning of 08/09 and 10/11. Also, with Luiz Suarez coming into the fold, a new manager implementing new tactics and a few new players to integrate it was not unreasonable to expect Barca to improve as the season went on.

And did really any of Bayern/Real/Atletico/Dortmuna or Chelsea look so much better than us at the beginning of the season? I very much doubt it.

Back then I told everyone on here to just for example take Chelsea's results up to that point, and then replace their name with ours. Suddenly, those results appear much less awesome. People tend to be fiercely negative about our team in recent years for a variety of reasons and this annoys me no end.

As per "defensive solidity"

Goals conceded so far in the Champions League by Barcelona and the "solid 5"


Barcelona: 7 in 10 games.

Bayern: 8 in 10 games.

Real Madrid: 6 in 9 games.

Atletico Madrid: 4 in 9 games.

Dortmund: 9 in 8 games.

So, if we go by the stats above, the most "defensively solid" team in Europe is Atletico, the same Atletico we have so comprehensively owned this season.

 

[DrPepper]

You talk about lack of defensive stability at "later stages". Care to explain ?

Quality of defensive transitions (counterpressing, delaying passes, getting back in shape), defensive organisation (shape, pressing) and defensive set pieces. We were shit at defending corners and free kicks and our counterpressing wasn't as good as it is now. Also we were playing a much more sterile possession game, which meant more counter attacking opportunities for opposition that we couldn't break up well enough.

In later stages it's simply key to not concede goals, especially at home. At home a 1-0 win is better than 3-2 and we're more a team that wins 3-2. So it's all about preventing the opposition to score goals. That's how I see it.

But like I said in my post, the discussion was over whether we had a chance of winning the CL. Your verdict was that we had zero chances, because all of those 5 teams would definitely beat us due to their superior defensive stability.

Once again no. Could've won the CL by avoiding facing any of those teams for instance, so "zero chances" was not true. Also I didn't claim they would beat us just because of being more stable defensively. Once again putting words in my mouth...

So, you obviously failed to foresee that teams like Chelsea and Dortmund (apparently defensive stability monsters according to you) would be unceremoniously knocked out of the competition by apparently less defensively stable sides such as Juventus and PSG that did not make it to your list.

So? Barca was eliminated by Chelsea in 2012 despite Barca being the much more stable side defensively.

 

[bismp]

If we actually win the treble it will almost a miracle.
In 2008/09 and in 2010/11 season,La liga was pretty much decided by this point,which meant that the team could easily concentrate on the CL semis.However,this year,we have to play well in every match,because RM is close,which reminds me of the 2009/10 and 2011/12 seasons...
BUT,i am cautiously optimistic.If the team continues to perform like this and messi regains his GOAT form,we have a very good chance to win the treble.However,history has shown us that getting to the semis is miles aprt from winning the CL

 

[StarLord]

Once again no. Could've won the CL by avoiding facing any of those teams for instance, so "zero chances" was not true. Also I didn't claim they would beat us just because of being more stable defensively. Once again putting words in my mouth...

This was your statement:

Doesn't matter. Champions League is more about defensive stability in the later stages and Barca obviously doesn't have that. Atletico Madrid, Dortmund, Chelsea, Bayern and Real Madrid would surely win against us in a two-legged tie.

They would surely win against us.

So, according to you, we are so lucky that Dortmund got annihilated by Juventus because they would surely win against us.

Oh man, thank God and the heavens that Dortmund are out!!!

 

[StarLord]

Some anonymous statements made in the recent past on this forum about Lucho in particular and this team in general:

For me there are just a few "top-managers"; Pep, Mourinho, Klopp, Ancelotti, and LVG. Klopp is really the most realistic option, but even to get him is quite unrealistic.

The so called rebuild is crap, Lucho is crap (which he showed in both Roma and to some extent in Celta), our board is crap and the way we've played lately is abso-fu****g-lutely crap. Crap pretty much all over the place, with crap being the key word - CRAP!

Kind of ironic how everyone was talking about getting a Plan B and now we're lacking in a Plan A.

It's also amazing how we went from a team that was famed for our impeccable and super-creative midfield to having no midfield at all. Where is our midfield Lucho, you clueless you?

Again this Kroos/Klopp pawn all!

You summed up everything I've been saying for months. we should have signed Kroos in January when we had the chance

We need to ship LE out pronto before too much more damage has been done .

Get Ronald Koeman in immediately .

i'm the same. and now im against people who want koeman, de boer, rudi garcia, pellegrini, mancini, hiddink or any other second rate as our coach. none of them is top class. and unless we get a top class manager we'll always be in deep sh**

Yeah! The only man who can manage a football club (outside of Pep and Mou of course, and that Klopp again, is Jupp)

Last season I wanted Tata over Lucho and this season I didn't want Lucho again.There were so many Lucho supporters. Where are they now? From day one I said Lucho would be a disaster and now I am right.

SOS TO JUPP HEYNKES ASAP!

Pep knew what to do when the default tactics weren't working. Lucho doesn't. That's the fundamental difference between the two and that's why Lucho will never achieve any of the success that Pep has, unless he learns to adapt to the situation on the field.

Too bad we cant get Jupp out of retirement. He would be perfect. HUGE experience, good understanding of players and tactics.

The team is a mess. Each passing game they get worse... people will still single out players, but the problem is the lack of a proper coach, system and tactics.

Agreed. We need a top manager but as much as I'd love it I think Klopp wouldn't come and firstly our board won't try as hard as they can to bring him up here.

If Klopp gets Dortmund 12th place in B'Liga do you still want him?????

Please no Pellegrini at Barca. I'd rather take Bielsa if Klopp won't come.

If Klopp gets Dortmund 12th place in B'Liga do you still want him?????

Oh yeah I'd want him totally !

Anyways, sack the current board and appoint Frank de Boer. He. Is. The. Perfect. Coach. For. Us.

Klopp...Klopp...Klopp...Klopp...

Klopp would probably implement af 4-2-3-1 formation. Why would Busquets not fit in there? I mean, he is used to play a doublepivot for his national side. I could see something like this if we brought in Klopp and gave him a transfer window (if we manage to shorten the ban to one transfer window...)

Yes for Bielsa as temp manager until 2016 when we can get maybe Klopp.

Reus has loads of work rate. We also already have Pedro.

Being the best team in Europe with a 4th rate manager:

Well, getting a second rate coach would still be an improvement. Lucho is at best a fourth rate coach and Tata maybe third rate.

On Koeman and the EPL as the measure of all things:

You are aware that Koeman has done wonders at Southampton !??

They sold about 18 of their best players and Koeman has brought in 15 new players and they are a close second in the EPL !!

Not everyone is crazy though:

I don't see any point of changing Lucho, it simply won't make a difference.

Back to batshit crazy again:

U can say klopp isnt doing well at bundesliga, but this guy is a genious.

Its not Klopp's fault that BVB's best player are poached every year but this guy still manages to get them working. He is miles ahead of Lucho in every way possible

Oh, that Invincible, imperious Bayern! It's not that Real took them to the cleaners on their own ground a few months back, nooooooooooooo, it never happened:

pep trying to comfort cules. nice of him but this time i don't think he's right. he'd destroy us in cl

Yeah, me too pep. Because this time we would lose 7-0 in a single match

Pep still cares for Barca. He doesn't want to see them getting humiliated by his own team.

Some more sense amidst the madness:

You cant live on old merits, players dont stay world class forever.

Again, that mighty Bayern:

lol-it would be worse then the Roma rout this season.

Pep would actually have to tell his players to back off a la the Brazil Germany WC SF

Lol @ Pep's comment.

He would annihilate this Barca team. It would be such a sad sight to see, probably unwatchable.

Ah yes, Jupp again:

I would rather play Pep's Bayern than Heynckes'

Yes, we're struggling, but as Pep said, things take time. And we're still close to the top in LaLiga and almost certain to get through the group stages in UCL.

Roma all over again.

People want Rijkaard back. Its getting desperate now

Not as desperate as those asking for Mourinho.

Various reports and rumours range from Klopp to Mourinho.

 

[Kohe321]

and out on a bike ride today on the teams day off:


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