Luis Enrique
- Thread starter Barcaman
- Start date
Agreed. Playing better football accounts for a lot in my book as it should for all Barca fans.
StarLord
New member
I agree.
Let's say we get eliminated by Bayern/Real in the semis on away goals by an off-side goal (a la 2010) or something, or even that we get eliminated fair and square, will that make us a failure for the season? Not really. The point is in being a legit threat for all trophies and we have achieved that already and in some spectacular fashion to boot. We may also lose La Liga on h2h to Real Madrid.
Some very fine margins will determine the outcome of the season. Unless our MSN Nuclear Trident go into beast-mode all at the same time, in which case we will be kicking arse for the remainder of the season!
JackaL
New member
This "ceterus paribus", all other things the same approach is what I am not agreeing with. Yes I have seen Messi playing than, still he was not as good as he is now, he was also better in the upcoming years. I know Iniesta's godlike performances, because I was part of those guys who believed that Iniesta was the best player on the planet after Messi. The thing is, you have the feeling that these players all of a sudden get "better" or are in their "primes". Just a year before that, Rijkaard did not manage to win the title (3rd with 67 pts), he had Iniesta, Xavi, Messi, Puyol, Abidal, Yaya, Henry, Eto'o, Ronaldinho (yes more in the bars than anywhere else) and Deco. You exclude the fact that players adapt to each other as well as teams (against each other). Raw talent of our players back than are super important, but that is not the only thing what makes them "win" trophies and here instead of some other force, managers and their managing team come into play. They facilitate the good players and lift them to their godlike performance (in some cases), in other cases, they can't really make use of so much talent (Löw, probably having a very strong side for years, only managed to win a WC).
I do not even deny that the collection of players were better, but this so called collection of players is also part of the managers' job to have. Again, Alves, Pique, Busquets (promoted) etc. were brought in by Pep. There's a "documentary" on Youtube, players like Valdes, Iniesta, Xavi and Puyol talking about Pep. Although surely there's some confirmation bias in there, you cannot deny that Pep's influence on this team and the individual players was incredible. Some even say they have learned how to play football under Pep.
In the CL: Drogba (prime or not?), Lampard (prime or not?), Essien, Terry, Anelka etc.
You have a talent pool in a certain period of time that is allocated among the best teams in the biggest leagues. That talent pool may be different now (according to you stronger), it does not change the fact however, that the best players between 2008-2011 were also allocated among those very same teams (Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Chelsea, Manu, PSG did not have its financier back then). No PSG was not as strong, but where did PSG get their current players from? Big money teams have a tendency to attract more talented players at once, but I still don't really see PSG as a strong force. Take City for example, although they have managed to win the EPL, they seem to be super poor in the CL (getting knocked out even in the group stage).
Your initial argument was that Lucho pawns Pep, which I do not believe at the moment. If we come back to Lucho: Suarez mentioned that it was Messi who told him to stay at the "9" position and play there - I read this as: Lucho adapted the team accordingly.
I do not even deny that the collection of players were better, but this so called collection of players is also part of the managers' job to have. Again, Alves, Pique, Busquets (promoted) etc. were brought in by Pep. There's a "documentary" on Youtube, players like Valdes, Iniesta, Xavi and Puyol talking about Pep. Although surely there's some confirmation bias in there, you cannot deny that Pep's influence on this team and the individual players was incredible. Some even say they have learned how to play football under Pep.
In the CL: Drogba (prime or not?), Lampard (prime or not?), Essien, Terry, Anelka etc.
You have a talent pool in a certain period of time that is allocated among the best teams in the biggest leagues. That talent pool may be different now (according to you stronger), it does not change the fact however, that the best players between 2008-2011 were also allocated among those very same teams (Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Chelsea, Manu, PSG did not have its financier back then). No PSG was not as strong, but where did PSG get their current players from? Big money teams have a tendency to attract more talented players at once, but I still don't really see PSG as a strong force. Take City for example, although they have managed to win the EPL, they seem to be super poor in the CL (getting knocked out even in the group stage).
Your initial argument was that Lucho pawns Pep, which I do not believe at the moment. If we come back to Lucho: Suarez mentioned that it was Messi who told him to stay at the "9" position and play there - I read this as: Lucho adapted the team accordingly.
StarLord
New member
I should have realized that that was the statement that hit you.
The only reason I made that statement was to provoke all those people who tend to reduce football results down to the managerial influence as much as possible. Their starting point tends to be something like: "Manager A is better than manager B" irrespective of the resources that either manager had at their disposal. Or: "Manager A has the measure of manager B" even though the circumstances under which they faced off are not considered, or the small statistical sample is treated as something definitive.
If you genuinely want to ask me who is better between Pep and Lucho then my answer is that I do not know, but I would give some extra credit to Lucho for having a lesser XI than Pep did (no argument there for me) and also having to face superior opposition.
In any case, my argument is that the role of managers is secondary in football (at the very best) and all those who disagree with me have to explain how Lucho (whom they all considered an atrocious manager a few weeks ago) has achieved even better results than Pep with a lesser squad.
JackaL
New member
The problem is, we have almost no chance to find out (some researchers in the field try out new methodologies), yet there is no team that plays "without" a manager. Stefan Szymanski has a nice blogpost here about the influence of managers and how to measure it. http://www.soccernomics-agency.com/?p=494
StarLord
New member
Thanks for the link.
Edit: Szymanski clearly states that the influence of managers is minimal at best. If it is anything more than zero, then it is difficult to even measure it since managers stay at their posts for very limited periods of time.
He also makes the point that luck is probably more influential than managerial input.
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Richard.H
Senior Member
One thing that worries me about Lucho is having his ego get in the way. He knows fully well how successful Pep was with Barca and how much influence from the Pep era is still left on the Lucho era.
I don't want Lucho to try some crazy lineup or some crazy substitution just to prove a point. He should just let the game flow and let the front 3 work its magic. Only tactically intervene when it's needed.
I don't want Lucho to try some crazy lineup or some crazy substitution just to prove a point. He should just let the game flow and let the front 3 work its magic. Only tactically intervene when it's needed.
Mexcelona
New member
the questions you wanna ask yourselves when you want to get rid of lucho is who could possibly replace him?
i see some people throwing klopp out there or even ancelotti but would they really play better than lucho?
so far lucho is getting amazing results, breaking records.. and yes we can still lose all our trophies but that should count for something..
to be a manager for barcelona you need to
a) get trophies
b) keep team chemistry and happiness
c) play attractive football.
so far we have 2/3, yes some fights have happened but we overcame the real sociedad incident and have progressed massively since the first half of the season.
i for one do not want us to turn into madrid where we get a new manager year in and year out.
lucho has shown he can improve with time, we should atleast offer him that.
i see some people throwing klopp out there or even ancelotti but would they really play better than lucho?
so far lucho is getting amazing results, breaking records.. and yes we can still lose all our trophies but that should count for something..
to be a manager for barcelona you need to
a) get trophies
b) keep team chemistry and happiness
c) play attractive football.
so far we have 2/3, yes some fights have happened but we overcame the real sociedad incident and have progressed massively since the first half of the season.
i for one do not want us to turn into madrid where we get a new manager year in and year out.
lucho has shown he can improve with time, we should atleast offer him that.
Vlom
Previously known as Mehssi
I completely trust that he won't, he'll use previous liga fixtures to rotate and go into CL SF with the best lineup, only doubt might be Masche or Matthieu as CB but I think he'll go with Masche.
This is what he has been working for, and the team, the entire season, with all it's ups and downs, he won't fuck it all up to prove a point, and the best point he could make, is getting trophies.
Easier said than it's done. This is not only special game for Lucho, this is an emotional event for entire Barca team:the humiliation of previous CL game, which was the omen of Barca's downfall, lowest point of Tito's management and many players had big respect for him.Pep-who got enormous credit for incredible Barca performance-now it's time to show who was real driving force of Barca. Our players will play like it's their last game and under those circumstances it's easy make mistakes.It's an emotional issue for Lucho, for entire team and for Camp Nou crowd. It will be one of the toughest games for Guardiola too.
Aryagorn
Improvin' Perfection!!
If he is such an egomaniac why would he agree to be the manager for B team when Pep was managing the first team... And why would he have given Pep the youngsters whenever he asked for one!?
And if he really wanted to get one over Pep, he probably would field his best team and not screw up his chances by experimenting in a crucial match, especially since he has already done that once and faced the backlash of the stars, in the team, as well as the media!
L
linetty
Guest
I agree. I would've kept him even if he goes trophyless (which is almost impossible as we will win CdR comfortably), mostly because we play the best football since Guardiola left. Changing managers is no good at this point (we can't make transfers any way).
KingMessi
SiempreBlaugrana
http://grup14.com/article/the-stats-vest-and-the-injury-free-barcelona
Great article about the technology used by Lucho's coaching team.
Great article about the technology used by Lucho's coaching team.
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