Luis Enrique
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StarLord
New member
Just throw a glance over what was being said here only a few months ago. It is astonishing!
JackaL
New member
This is quite interesting because people love to rely on numbers these days to support their arguments (the Big Data hype is crazy, here's a nice blog post on that: http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/view-from-nowhere/). I love numbers too, I love data, arguments based on facts etc. Yet, a lot of people have gone from only showing numbers without interpreting them in a meaningful / analytic way. Look at all those "data-supported" articles on the net, mostly u only see some graphs and some numbers presented as if the numbers themselves are self explanatory enough.
Back to topic and my critique:
So Lucho "pawns" Pep, what does that exactly mean? According to the stats provided, Lucho, apparently, has won more games. Well while there might be trend, I want to remind you that Pep has won all possible titles within his first year, while at the moment, Lucho has won nothing. So before we jump to conclusions because of some numbers we see, we should rather take into consideration what the numbers are exactly telling us.
Than again, there are some assumptions within your arguments that are somehow presented as facts, which by the way is not the most elegant way of discussing things (a lot of people do it though). So the realities you're talking about:
La Liga was weaker back than - While this may count as an argument, I believe hard evidence to find for that is pretty tough to find, although the assumption as such might look as if it made sense. If La Liga was weaker back then so was Barca because Barca was part of that league (The individual talent is part of the aggregate overall talent). To put it differently: there's no absolute number that can measure the pure strength of a team and therefore tell whether that team is better than the rest or not, instead there's a stronger team (which is also develops dynamically) makes others adapt so that opponents learn how to cope with that strength (check RMs great investments and Mou's experiments to cope with Pep's Barca, as well as all other teams learning how to play against Barca). So again, Barca's quality back then was closer to the quality of the entire league and not just the sum of the individual talents we had in our team.
Better players - We cannot remember the good old times and all of a sudden exclude some facts or forget to include them. Pep brought in new players (Pique and Busquets probably the most important ones) and built the team with them. The way you present the facts is as if there was somebody offering all these talents on a silver platter, while there's a lot of work in "engineering the perfect squad". Take Messi, in 2008 he was never as good as later in his career - especially not as good as now. I think his peak was at the age of 24/25 (we will see if he can break those records).
A weaker champions league - again, similar arguments as above. If we had a number that would show that there is stronger talent in the CL at the moment compared to 2008, we could talk about it, but again it would not be enough. As I said before, tactics change according to the stronger teams within a certain period of time in the competition. Our competitors were desperate to find a solution against "the best team in history" and they have tried a lot to be honest to stop Barca.
I do not disagree completely with you, I just want to state the fact that pure mentioning of some numbers does not replace interpretation.
Let's see if Lucho can manage to win all these titles.
serghei
Senior Member
Pep won with Barca an average of 3.5 titles per year in his 4 years at Barcelona. Using stats to prove Lucho is better than Pep is pretty useless, since the most important stats are the trophies you win. If Lucho will win the treble this year with Barcelona, then we could talk about a comparison.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
Even then trophies won is a hard comparison as standard of players Pep inherited was higher, La Liga was weaker and CL was weaker.
6 Ballons for Messi
but what if he wins 7??
That's garbage.
StarLord
New member
Of course we do not have a number, but my assertion/speculation that Pep had better players than Lucho does now is not based on hot air, but on very rational arguments. Let's take them one by one. Pep had at his disposal:
a) A young Messi, in his first God-mode season. While there is the temptation among football fans to say that it was Pep who brought the best out of Messi, I think it was more of Messi coming finally of age. In 08/09 Messi was 21 years old. So it was the transition between being a teenage prospect/sensation to becoming an all-time great. I hope for your own sake that you were indeed watching Barcelona then week in week out. Messi was immense in that season. He was slimmer and faster than he is now as well as more agile. He was less mature of course, but his heroic dribbling runs were a thing of beauty. Time after time he would skip by groups of players and score or assist. He played that RW role to perfection.
b) Henry in his final good season. Was Henry as good as Neyboy is now? No. Here Lucho has the advantage. But still, Henry was uber-essential that season. He scored 26 goals from 36 starts (42 apps) Some of those goals were extremely crucial. He equalized away to Lyon in the CL. He scored twice against Madrid (the 1st and 4th) in that legendary 2-6. He also scored crucial away goals against Villarreal and Valencia.
c) Eto'o. A legend of a CF! Scored 36 goals that season (only two less than Messi) I don't think I have to elaborate more on what Eto'o was for our team, even long before Pep took over. I have never seen a player with more short-run acceleration than prime Eto'o. He was also still very much in his prime, as he went on to have two more epic season with Inter. Maybe Suarez is a bit more lethal than Eto'o ever was, but we must also take into account that we had to go without Luis for the first quarter of the season, and then had to bed him in. Eto'o was an established Barcelona monster before Pep took over.
d) Now the real advantage the Pep had will become clearer. Anyone who witnessed the Treble season from game to game, knows this: Andres Iniesta was at his absolute best! That run/dribble assist to Neymar was how Iniesta was game in, game out for us that season. Especially in the 2nd half of the season, where he was definitely our best player (yes, ahead of even Messi or Xavi) He shone in all the games where we faced difficulties (Betis away, Villarreal home, Valencia away, we would have lost all 3 of those games without Iniesta) and he was also the star performer in all 5 CL games from the QFs onwards up to and including the final in Rome. (Rooney and SAF both said after the game that he was the difference) I also do not have to mention that most dramatic goal in the history of FC Barcelona at Stamford Bridge deep in injury time. Current Iniesta is 15% to what 2009 Iniesta was. As a sidenote here, if Andres can repeat his PSG performance in a few more games this season, then we are favorites for the treble!
e) Prime Xavi. Coming hot off the Euro 2008 triumph (best player in that tournament) Xavi was also at his brilliant best that season. He was so good that season, he even appeared somewhat fast in some games, had bucketloads of stamina (as did Andres) and as the saying went: "He never gave the ball away" That season, Xavi and Iniesta were giving masterclass performance after masterclass performance. It was a thing of insufferable beauty! Just re-watch the Rome final, or the 2-6, or the 2-0 against Madrid. Xavi was astonishing back then, he had something like 25 assists that season, plus all around great game.
f) Prime Alves. In his first season for us, the 25 year old Alves transformed our right wing into an autobahn! He did not know what tiredness meant, he was much faster than he is now and also scored some spectacular goals. He also assisted dozens of goals and was a cornerstone of probably the most awesome right-wing football has ever seen along with Xavi and Messi. An absolute animal back then.
g) Yaya Toure. People were not paying too much attention to the big Ivorian back then, but he was one of favorite Barca players (ahead of Biscuits) An absolute monster as a DM for us, and could also be fielded as a CB as in the 2nd semi against Chelsea and the final vs United.
h) Puyol. Carles-Tarzan-Puyol. I will stop there.
i) Abidal. While he did not have a particularly good season in 08/09, it just goes on to show what quality permeated our ranks back then.
k) Rafa Marquez. Even though the Mexican may sound pedestrian in this company, he was a very solid player back then.
l) Pique and Busquets. Yes, Pep brought them on to the scene. But it's not like they were not naturally gifted players anyway!
But, to reiterate, the big difference from then to now, imo, were 3 players. Xavi-Iniesta-Alves. All of them were at their absolute peak back then and in coordination with the epic trident we had back then (almost as good as the current trident) created a football juggernaut that we will be talking about for decades into the future. They also made Pep's good name!
Now, to the 2nd point. That both La Liga and the CL were weaker back then. Well, that is not very difficult to prove either. Spanish teams were not as good back then as they are now. This is demonstrated by European results, Spain was then 2nd behind the EPL, unlike now when La Liga leads the rest of the leagues in Europe by some crazy margin.
Another way to understand this is to compare the current Real to the Real Madrid of 08/09. That Madrid lost 0-5 to Benitez Liverpool in the CL. They had players like Heinze, Drenthe, Cannavaro at his old age, Metzelder, ageing Raul, Diarra etc etc. They also had Robben and Sneijder who were always injured.
The same goes for several other teams. Atletico were then known as Pathetico, with a defense more porous than the Libyan borders. The amount of sides we swatted aside within 15 to 20 minutes that season was immense. We opened a massive gap to Real Madrid from early on, and could later lift our foot from the gas somewhat. Something like that is unthinkable now.
I am sure that you are aware of Spanish performances in Europe back then as opposed to those we see in the last few years.
The CL as well was weaker back then.
We do not require some deeply scientific methodology to be able to tell that either. Ligue 1 did not have a mega-rich team back then. They had the OK Lyon. Serie A was more or less nowhere, we did not have to face any of their teams anyway. The German teams back then were little more than a bye to the next round, while now Bayern are a mega-team equivalent to us and Madrid. Back then, the suggestion that another Spanish team could knock us out of the CL would have been laughable, while nowadays it would be something perfectly ordinary. The only worthy rivals back then were the EPL duo of Chelsea and United. Even then, the most that Chelsea could do was to park their god damn bus, to which Pep had no answer. United were fine and all, but still relied on ageing players such as Scholes, Giggs, and some mediocre ones such as Carrick, Park and Anderson.
So yes, I think that it is not controversial in the slightest to claim that Pep had a better collection of players to the one that Lucho enjoys, and that also La Liga and the CL are now far more formidable than they were back then.
StarLord
New member
If we had to face the same opponents as we did back then, and with prime Xavi-Iniesta-Alves into the fold, I would bet my house on us winning everything again.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
Nope its not.
What of Pep having better players, La Liga being poorer and CL being poorer do you not agree with?
Not arguing against Pep or for Lucho as Pep is greatest manager the club has ever had but you will find I am right.
KyletheMuslim
Guardiolista
Lol who is this guy ? Lucho still hasn't won any trophies, if Lucho wins the sextuple this year, then we can talk about "comparisons"
StarLord
New member
We have much tougher opponents than in 08/09. Why is that so hard for some to comprehend?
Vlom
Previously known as Mehssi
Because who's to say that Pep wouldn't have accomplished the same thing with the tougher opponents by upping the game accordingly ?
Tougher competition mught justify glorifying Lucho a little bit more, but in no way belittling what Pep achieved.
I say let's wait and see what silverware Lucho brings.
xXKonan
Senior Member
For Me I would call Lucho a Success. He Put us in a Position to possibly win the Treble, and got us Playing some attractive Football for the First time in ages. the First half of the Season was a mixed bag, Sure we won some games but at times it wasn't Convincing. and with some of the Crazy Rotations it hurt us quite a bit in Games like the Classico in October,and obviously the Real Sociedad Match which admittedly was the Turning point after that. Lucho was Taken to the cleaners by The Fans and the Media and some of the players (If any of that was true) Personally for me Losing to Sociedad when Real had Fumbled Points the Day before Frustrated me but Thankfully Lucho Finally got Things together after it. This Year alone what a difference, We finally started playing well, We beaten some of the Toughest teams in the league and in Europe. We made it to the CDR Final, we Made it to the Semi finals for the CL and we are Leading the La Liga Standings. We didn't Weasel our way in either, We legit Had to take down Some Tough Competition.
Lucho Might have some Brain farts every now and then when it comes to Subs and some Tactics but I do Respect the Dude a lot for Bringing us this far again and Not only that Getting Some of our Players back to Their Best that have Struggled a bit.
Lucho Might have some Brain farts every now and then when it comes to Subs and some Tactics but I do Respect the Dude a lot for Bringing us this far again and Not only that Getting Some of our Players back to Their Best that have Struggled a bit.
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