Luis Enrique

6 Ballons for Messi

but what if he wins 7??
Wait- how did Tata from unlucky coach from 2 posts ago became a bad coach?

I never said tata is a good coach.
Just said that he was unlucky unlike lucho. Swap messi's form between these 2 last seasons and the silverware would go the opposite way, anyone arguing that is just trolling.
 

6 Ballons for Messi

but what if he wins 7??
And did you forget the amount of Dumb mistakes Pep has done as well in his Coaching Career? this is becoming a Habit with a certain segment of Barcelona fans that every Mistake and even slight mishap on Lucho's part they think "Lucho was carried by the team and MSN's Brilliance" while Some fans act like Pep was some sort of Flawless Individual that never made any sort of dumb Tactical and lineup mistakes. Pep did a lot of good here for Barcelona Obviously but he isn't some flawless individual like some Barca fans think he also made some dumb mistakes during his managing career and theirs nothing wrong with it.

I'm not even Comparing the two, I'm just stating the fact Even Pep wasn't flawless as some may think.

Who said Pep is flawless? You are just putting words into our mouths.
He's a much much better coach than lucho and one of the best imo but no one is flawless.
 

KingLeo10

Senior Member
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
You forgot what Pep done a few years ago?

he's a good coach, i said that. his hand in the transfer market was average at best, with some very questionable buys. His insistence on a high line and a back 3 possibly played a part in our defeat versus chelsea in the 11-12 CL. He has stellar achievements, no doubt, but he also had a very, very strong cast of players he used to achieve those trophies. But when we speak of lucho, he is regarded as a complete passenger by some despite succeeding in a similar fashion. i think that is ironic, don't you?
 

mssarm

Member
Who said Pep is flawless? You are just putting words into our mouths.
He's a much much better coach than lucho and one of the best imo but no one is flawless.
You did
So lucho is just a passenger, he's nothing like Pep who is indeed a coaching genius and improved us to create the best team ever.
genius means flawless.
 

Stric

New member
I never said tata is a good coach.
Just said that he was unlucky unlike lucho. Swap messi's form between these 2 last seasons and the silverware would go the opposite way, anyone arguing that is just trolling.

Not only that, but the rest of the squad as well. Lucho had Suarez, Mathieu, Rakitić and two new great and healthy goalkeepers to replace the previous guys. Anyone understating the importance of that is just looking to put as much blame on Tata as possible, whether it's warranted or not. Tata's Barca was far from perfect, but it's a fact that they reached two finals and were only a few goals away from winning two titles with a much inferior squad to begin with, and injured players on top. The squad changes alone make a greater difference than winning another two games is. Not to mention Messi.
 
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6 Ballons for Messi

but what if he wins 7??
You did
So lucho is just a passenger, he's nothing like Pep who is indeed a coaching genius and improved us to create the best team ever.
genius means flawless.

Yeah I don't know what the word genius means inside your head but if you open a lexicon you will find that you are wrong.
 

mssarm

Member
This is a pointless argument. Pep definitely is very talented coach, but no genius. Whatever happened in 2008-2012 was combination of several things. But Pep today cannot repeat the same success of 2008-2012. We all have seen his achievement with Bayern. Messi made the difference for Lucho and made the difference for Pep. Yes he has that X factor that can change the game, but no -Messi is not the only factor for team to win trophies(otherwise he would make his NT champion and take the blame for all the losses). I thought we established that in this forum long time ago and can't understand why this pointless argument got resurrected.
 

Stric

New member
Whatever happened in 2008-2012 was combination of several things.

Just like it was last season. I don't see why the coach would get more credit for 14-15 than for 08-12. So there's no possible argument for claiming that Lucho is the better coach. In fact, right now there is still more evidence of the contrary.
 

mssarm

Member
Just like it was last season. I don't see why the coach would get more credit for 14-15 than for 08-12. So there's no possible argument for claiming that Lucho is the better coach. In fact, right now there is still more evidence of the contrary.

You misunderstood my quote. I said in 14/15 Lucho was more successful than Pep. They both benefited from having Messi in their team and I don't want to compare Pep to Lucho, because it is pointless. However, claiming that Pep is genius and Lucho is a by-standing passenger is baseless statement.
 

Stric

New member
You misunderstood my quote. I said in 14/15 Lucho was more successful than Pep. They both benefited from having Messi in their team and I don't want to compare Pep to Lucho, because it is pointless. However, claiming that Pep is genius and Lucho is a by-standing passenger is baseless statement.

That's all true, and while you do have a point about it being a baseless statement, because it's just too intense, I think of it as an exaggerated and poor wording of an idea that's not nearly as baseless. You can't argue that Pep made a bigger and more long-term impact on Barca than Lucho has so far. This era started with Pep and his approach. Lucho was the one who came in at some point and built on it. That's not to say that Lucho can't eventually be more successful than Pep, but as far as I'm concerned, when you look at the history of FCB, it's clear as day which one of them is the icon (the "genius", if you will). At least up until this point.
 

mssarm

Member
That's all true, and while you do have a point about it being a baseless statement, because it's just too intense, I think of it as an exaggerated and poor wording of an idea that's not nearly as baseless. You can't argue that Pep made a bigger and more long-term impact on Barca than Lucho has so far. This era started with Pep and his approach. Lucho was the one who came in at some point and built on it. That's not to say that Lucho can't eventually be more successful than Pep, but as far as I'm concerned, when you look at the history of FCB, it's clear as day which one of them is the icon (the "genius", if you will). At least up until this point.
You can't compare Pep's legacy to Lucho's even if Lucho gets all the silverware this season and next season-> it's like comparing Pep to Cruyff. This is just Lucho's second season, he already proved his worth to the club. Give the guy credit for what he has done so far and hope that he can repeat the success. I don't understand where's this "by-standing passenger" statement is coming from. The assumption that Guardiola could have done better job is baseless claim and serves no purpose.
 
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footyfan

Calma, calma
He's not a genius like Pep. There's little chance he can manage to have as successful a season with such a thin squad. He should play it smart and prioritize retaining the CL and give up the Liga in the later stages of the season if necessary.
 

Stric

New member
I don't even think Guardiola would have done a better job in Barca 14-15. IMHO, he probably wouldn't have. The time was right for Lucho's approach and that's partly why it worked. But I don't think it's a fair comparison, either. Maybe a comparison of their first respective seasons at Barca would have been fair. But we're going off-topic as it is. :)
 

Sumlit

San Claudio Bravo
He's just a taskmaster type of coach. Gets the players in shape, adds discipline to the squad, but doesn't really bring anything innovative and revolutionary. Hasn't shown to be a great tactician either.
 

Alarcón

New member
It's ridiculous how you imply getting the players in shape and adding discipline to the squad is something minor. If he manages that in the world's best team that's already more than almost all coaches could do here and certainly more than his 2 predecessors did. Even Pep said towards the end of his tenure he couldn't convey his ideas to the squad anymore.

As for "Lucho had better players than Tata", I'm sorry but wasn't Tata the one who said we don't need a CB because Puyol is like a new signing? It's laughable how some of you understate the role of the staff in signing the correct players. Rakitic, Bravo & Mathieu were actively pursued and wanted by Lucho and his staff and proved to be great signings, and Arda & Vidal will hopefully prove the same. Meanwhile Pep's transfers were mostly garbage & Tata was happy with Neymar and Puyol.

"Revolutionary" and "innovative" hasn't proven to be very successful for Pep at Bayern now has it? And about Pep's abilities as a tactician, I'd rather not talk. The guy has been playing with exactly 1 system from the beginning of his coaching career. When it works, it's fantastic, but when it doesn't, his players embarrass themselves. Lucho brought a new, more direct and obviously more successful playing style too & apart from that, he reinvigorated the squad. Neymar played 10 times better this season than the last one. Suarez immediately found his way into the team (like the other signings). Messi was much better; Alves, Piqué, Busquets, Xavi, Alba & Mascherano too - some of which most people on here had already given up hope. Did Messi not only himself magically and without any influence from the coach play a lot better but also somehow make everyone else play better? Did Messi make the opponents have 0 shots on target in games where they would previously have several?

I'd advise everyone to take a moment and appreciate what we have achieved; and especially to stop thinking this is Football Manager. Some of the comments on here already remind me of last season when people came up with borderline insane suggestions like Oscar Garcia who in his entire career has only coached teams where even I could play. Shows how spoiled but also how deluded some members of this forum are. If Barçaforum had a say in how the club is run we wouldn't even get into CL and Messi & every other half decent player would not hesitate to leave.

And all of this drama because of a meaningless loss in a competition almost no one cares about... but Barça fans do because they want to impress people on Twitter... get a freaking grip.
 

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