Mario Gotze

[JamDav1982]

How about the whole CL-playoffs for example?

What do you mean?

Neymar has scored against Atletico Madrid to win the Super Cup and then scored in his first classico while he was playing well in almost all the important games for Santos and Brazil.


There is no problem at all about Neymar not performing in the big games.

 

[JamDav1982]

Arguing their talent levels is subjective, but how on earth does being a star in the Brazilian league compare to being a star in the Bundesliga for multiple seasons? Being good in the CL playoffs is something that Neymar still has to prove as well.

He has it still to prove in as much as he has never played in them not that he has failed to perform.

Gotze still has it to prove at international level compared to Neymar.

 

[Paganinisrvnge]

What do you mean Neymar has done more? We only really have about 6 or 7 months of him playing quality opposition to judge him on. Before the Confederations Cup and joining Barcelona, he had wrecked a bunch of 3rd division teams in Brazil and played a number of friendly international matches with Brazil against the likes of Gabon and Scotland.

I would say the only noteworthy things he's done are winning Copa Libertadores, having a very good confederations cup(again, a warm-up for the world cup), scoring in the supercup, and having a fairly good but not amazing performance against Real Madrid.

In 2014, we'll really get to see where he and Gotze compare when they both have to be tested by the CL knockouts and the world cup.

 

[Alik]

For the Confederation cup I agree but I do not rate those cup things that much nor Real Madrid as of late. And don't tell me about Real winning their CL group, that wasn't a tall order looking at their opponents. The biggest and most important games take place during the spring and that's when a player's worth is really measured.

If you don't consider Atletico in a cup final and an El Classico as "big games" then I cannot argue with you.

Come on guys stop being biased. Neymar played well at the Confederations Cup but it's still just a warm-up tournament to the world cup. He had a good match against Real but not amazing and it took him until the last CL group game to get his first goals against an abysmal Celtic side.

I've liked Neymar so far and I admit I underestimated his talent before we signed him but Gotze was key in Dortmund's back to back Bundesliga winning side and was pretty good in the CL knockouts. Then he scored the first goal in his return to Dortmund for Bayern after he was heavily booed.

In conclusion, neither of these two are even top 10 in the world yet and still both have things to prove. I want to see what Neymar does in the CL knockouts.

Yeah just undermine Neymar's achievements. Those games were a lot bigger than games vs Shaktar and Malaga in the CL knockout stages.

Point is, so far Neymar has always proved his doubters wrong and there were many even here in the forum.

 

[Crews]

Brazilian league vs Bundesliga and CL? I don't want to be rude but seriously? It's not like Götze hasn't done well in NT but when you compare who they are both against in their national teams you should notice something.

 

[JamDav1982]

Brazilian league vs Bundesliga and CL? I don't want to be rude but seriously? It's not like Götze hasn't done well in NT but when you compare who they are both against in their national teams you should notice something.

Who is saying that the Brazilian league is better than German?

Neymar has performed well in the majority of big games wherever he has been. There is no point in using games he has never played in as argument for him having things to prove compared to another player.

European team have amongst the easiest games to play when it comes to intl games. So no idea what your point is there.

 

[Paganinisrvnge]

Why are people getting so mad? If you're a Barcelona fan then you know the biggest matches are the Classicos and the CL knockouts. One good classico performance and scoring a goal in the supercup do NOT count on equal ground as playing against the other best teams in Europe at the absolute highest level. If Neymar does better than Gotze in the CL knockouts and in the world cup then he'll surely be considered better but for now they have not played in the same competitions.

As much as it infuriates people, the truth is that Gotze has played in tougher matches than Neymar to this point. I don't doubt Neymar's abilities but we just have to wait to see how he does against teams like City, Arsenal, Bayern, PSG, Chelsea, Dortmund, etc. in hugely important matches.

 

[JamDav1982]

What do you mean Neymar has done more? We only really have about 6 or 7 months of him playing quality opposition to judge him on. Before the Confederations Cup and joining Barcelona, he had wrecked a bunch of 3rd division teams in Brazil and played a number of friendly international matches with Brazil against the likes of Gabon and Scotland.

I would say the only noteworthy things he's done are winning Copa Libertadores, having a very good confederations cup(again, a warm-up for the world cup), scoring in the supercup, and having a fairly good but not amazing performance against Real Madrid.

In 2014, we'll really get to see where he and Gotze compare when they both have to be tested by the CL knockouts and the world cup.

Why point out the likes of Gabon and Scotland? - Who are a lot better than some of the teams that Germany have played these last few years.

The Confederations cup was taken seriously by the teams in it and not to be dismissed as just a 'warm up for the world cup'.

At this stage in their careers Neymar has done more on the intl stage.

 

[spark]

How about the whole CL-playoffs for example?

You mean the CL knockouts where he missed chance after chance ?

 

[Paganinisrvnge]

Why point out the likes of Gabon and Scotland? - Who are a lot better than some of the teams that Germany have played these last few years.

The Confederations cup was taken seriously by the teams in it and not to be dismissed as just a 'warm up for the world cup'.

At this stage in their careers Neymar has done more on the intl stage.

I haven't even mentioned Gotze playing for Germany as he hasn't gotten that many chances and their qualifiers are easy. People want to use Neymar being good for Brazil as an excuse to say he's better than Gotze when Brazil literally just had like 3 years of flying around playing easy friendlies and one tournament on their home ground against teams not used to their weather.

Like I've said earlier; I'm liking Neymar a lot and think he's a fantastic talent but there is still much for him to do before people put him in the top 10 players in the world.

Here's a list of things he hasn't done that players are judged by:

1. Play through a world cup qualifying campaign
2. Play an entire season in a top European league
3. Play in the Champions League knockout stages
4. Play a World Cup

He'll have 3 of those out of the way by the end of next summer. Why crown him as one of the best when he still hasn't even had a chance to prove himself?

 

[Paganinisrvnge]

You mean the CL knockouts where he missed chance after chance ?

Also the same CL knockouts where he was very, very good against Real Madrid before he got injured.

 

[Crews]

Who is saying that the Brazilian league is better than German?

Neymar has performed well in the majority of big games wherever he has been. There is no point in using games he has never played in as argument for him having things to prove compared to another player.

European team have amongst the easiest games to play when it comes to intl games. So no idea what your point is there.

I meant that performing well is harder when you're playing against better opponents.

And the difference is that Götze has done well for years and has proven himself in CL, while Neymar hasn't, I don't mean that Neymar can't do that but until he does you can't assume he will and claim he is better than Götze on that basis.

Having Reus, Kroos, Özil etc. fighting for the same positions differs quite a bit from Hulk, Oscar and the other, and no I don't think they are bad players but they as well have quite a bit of proving to do. I'm not even sure who Neymar actually has fighting for the LW position in the Brazilian NT.

In a nutshell; when you have two amazing talents, but only one has proved himself in the big games for multiple seasons, I will rate that player as the better one until proven otherwise. If Neymar indeed has played better than Götze when we are having this conversation after the WC, I will have no problems admitting it.

 

[JamDav1982]

I haven't even mentioned Gotze playing for Germany as he hasn't gotten that many chances and their qualifiers are easy. People want to use Neymar being good for Brazil as an excuse to say he's better than Gotze when Brazil literally just had like 3 years of flying around playing easy friendlies and one tournament on their home ground against teams not used to their weather.

Like I've said earlier; I'm liking Neymar a lot and think he's a fantastic talent but there is still much for him to do before people put him in the top 10 players in the world.

Here's a list of things he hasn't done that players are judged by:

1. Play through a world cup qualifying campaign
2. Play an entire season in a top European league
3. Play in the Champions League knockout stages
4. Play a World Cup

He'll have 3 of those out of the way by the end of next summer. Why crown him as one of the best when he still hasn't even had a chance to prove himself?

If thats your criteria I dont know why you even bother to comment as you cant have any idea who is the better player.

You have just choses criteria to suit your argument.

Far more can be told of a player in the Confederations Cup than can be through european teams thrashing minnows in a world cup campaign.

Not everyone needs that criteria to judge.

 

[Paganinisrvnge]

If thats your criteria I dont know why you even bother to comment as you cant have any idea who is the better player.

You have just choses criteria to suit your argument.

Far more can be told of a player in the Confederations Cup than can be through european teams thrashing minnows in a world cup campaign.

Not everyone needs that criteria to judge.

I'm trying to argue as fairly as possible yet you just get mad. Once again I'm not even using Gotze playing for Germany as an argument. At all. Just completely forget about international matches for Gotze. We'll just imagine that Gotze has never even been capped so that you don't get upset.

I'm talking about the fact that Neymar has not done a lot of things. You summed up EXACTLY what I'm saying. We have no idea who is the better player because they haven't had the same challenges!

 

[JamDav1982]

I meant that performing well is harder when you're playing against better opponents.

And the difference is that Götze has done well for years and has proven himself in CL, while Neymar hasn't, I don't mean that Neymar can't do that but until he does you can't assume he will and claim he is better than Götze on that basis.

Having Reus, Kroos, Özil etc. fighting for the same positions differs quite a bit from Hulk, Oscar and the other, and no I don't think they are bad players but they as well have quite a bit of proving to do. I'm not even sure who Neymar actually has fighting for the LW position in the Brazilian NT.

In a nutshell; when you have two amazing talents, but only one has proved himself in the big games for multiple seasons, I will rate that player as the better one until proven otherwise. If Neymar indeed has played better than Götze when we are having this conversation after the WC, I will have no problems admitting it.

What has Gotze proven in the CL exaclty? One good campaign?

As with the other guy if all you use is the CL and european leagues to judge the player then you cant have any real opinion as one player has no t had that chance yet.

To compare them you have to take into account Neymars other achievements and performances other wise you CANNOT compare them.

Remember that Pep tried to get Neymar before he moved for Gotze.