Neymar Jr.

[BBZ8800]

Example of "oldschool" bias. You are deluded if you think more players like Stoichkov won't come up. Reus is that type of a player, for instance. No tricks, just efficient decision making.

Your hate of flashy wingers is quite weird. Wingers have always been the players most likely to use tricks and flashy moves. Cause they fucking need them in order to beat their man. And they will have a lot of mistakes because of the dangerous nature of their role. Which winger can even satisfy you? Genuine question: what is your opinion on some of the best wingers in the 21st century like Ribery or Robben?

No, I don't think that all players are crowd players today.
But imo, we have more Neymars today than 20-30 years ago.

Why?
Imo, back then we had only:
1. football matches live
2. football matches on a Tv
3. football matches on a radio
4. papers writing about players

If Neymar did it a trick back then, crowd would either say: wow, a papers would wrote that he was good etc.
And that's it, his trick would "die" to some extent.

Today, we face Facebook, Instagram, Youtube.
Imo, today way more kids watch football. With kids, I mean like 10-14 years olds.
I mean, kids watched football even then. But when I was 10 or 12, my football world was:
1. we watched matches on a Tv
2. and talked in school about attackers and goals of course (kids always love attackers and goals the most)

But what do the kids do today?
1. they watch matches
2. but they are watching videos and especially circus tricks on Youtube all day long
3. they are following fancy players on Instagram
4. they can easily comment on Instagram, Youtube, forums

So, to some extent, kids are today imo way more important audience than in 90s.
In 90s kids had no money, and as a club, you could have earned on kids only through: tv tickets, scarfs and shirts.
Today, clubs and players are earning money on Youtube from number of clicks, number of comments, number of followers on Instagram, etc.

So, to some extent, imo, someone like Neymar would have been less popular and exposed in 1992.
People looked more at either you are bringing results or not.
Today, he can be the ARGUABLY SECOND BEST PLAYER in the world, without any obvious trophies and gamechanger matches behind his name.

May be, but teams like Real Madrid or Barcelona spend millions on players with this profile because is what people want to see. Most of them at least. Football is not just about winning, i am telling you, football is also entertainment! The winning is really important, all clubes pursue that, but the teams that really stay in history are those that can win playing beautiful, that can win giving a show.

Of course beautifulness can be seen in simple plays if really well done. Football can be simple, the hard is to play simple football really well. And seeing how that kind of mentality comes from you, i find hard to understand why can't you see the magnificent of Arthur's football! The beauty of his style lies on the simpleness of his game. Of course that his Xaviesque turns gets more attention of the fans, but his passing and movement that are his true weapons.

So you hate Ronaldinho is what you're saying ?

There is a balance between: efficiency and tricks
Some players:
1. are all about efficiency and zero tricks
2. other have BOTH efficiency and tricks
3. and then some are all about tricks and with them tricks are more important than the actual score, more or less

So, you have guys, for example:
1) efficient, not too much tricks=Larsson, Stoichkov, Pedro, Villa, Etoo, Overmars
2) both efficiency and some tricks=Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Henry
3) too many tricks killing the efficiency and end product=Neymar, Denilson, Quaresma, Robinho

About Arthur, he plays simple.
But I have a problem with him because for now it seems as if his end goal of his game is not to lose the ball.
While the end goal should be: pass the ball to attackers and create a chance as fast as possible.

 

[DonAK]

57% is much healthier than 81% of ours, or even 86% I read somewhere.

And last time I checked, our revenue was never higher than Real Madrid's.

We can afford to sign Neymar but not without borrowing more money just for his transfer fee (even if PSG accepted players + 80m), not to mention his huge salary. We will keep piling up debt without even starting the Espai Project yet.

Truth be told, Real Madrid has much better finances than us.

While Real Madrid has better finances than us, one of the reasons our wage bill is bloated is Messi's salary alone.

 

[xxxxxx]

57% is much healthier than 81% of ours, or even 86% I read somewhere.

And last time I checked, our revenue was never higher than Real Madrid's.

We can afford to sign Neymar but not without borrowing more money just for his transfer fee (even if PSG accepted players + 80m), not to mention his huge salary. We will keep piling up debt without even starting the Espai Project yet.

Truth be told, Real Madrid has much better finances than us.

Of course they have better finances than us, most teams do. Our spending on wages and transfers has been awful in recent years. But to say Madrid can easily go out and spend 250m euros on Neymar after they just spent 300m euros already this summer is a bit silly..... regardless if you pay them in installments. Our wage bill is only fucked because we pay Messi so much. He makes up a good % of it.

If we're going by his logic, we could easily do it in installments of 4 or 5 years. Our net spend is something like 100m euros over the last 2 years.

 

[Jcar]

No, I don't think that all players are crowd players today.
But imo, we have more Neymars today than 20-30 years ago.

Why?
Imo, back then we had only:
1. football matches live
2. football matches on a Tv
3. football matches on a radio
4. papers writing about players

If Neymar did it a trick back then, crowd would either say: wow, a papers would wrote that he was good etc.
And that's it, his trick would "die" to some extent.

Today, we face Facebook, Instagram, Youtube.
Imo, today way more kids watch football. With kids, I mean like 10-14 years olds.
I mean, kids watched football even then. But when I was 10 or 12, my football world was:
1. we watched matches on a Tv
2. and talked in school about attackers and goals of course (kids always love attackers and goals the most)

But what do the kids do today?
1. they watch matches
2. but they are watching videos and especially circus tricks on Youtube all day long
3. they are following fancy players on Instagram
4. they can easily comment on Instagram, Youtube, forums

So, to some extent, kids are today imo way more important audience than in 90s.
In 90s kids had no money, and as a club, you could have earned on kids only through: tv tickets, scarfs and shirts.
Today, clubs and players are earning money on Youtube from number of clicks, number of comments, number of followers on Instagram, etc.

So, to some extent, imo, someone like Neymar would have been less popular and exposed in 1992.
People looked more at either you are bringing results or not.
Today, he can be the ARGUABLY SECOND BEST PLAYER in the world, without any obvious trophies and gamechanger matches behind his name.





There is a balance between: efficiency and tricks
Some players:
1. are all about efficiency and zero tricks
2. other have BOTH efficiency and tricks
3. and then some are all about tricks and with them tricks are more important than the actual score, more or less

So, you have guys, for example:
1) efficient, not too much tricks=Larsson, Stoichkov, Pedro, Villa, Etoo, Overmars
2) both efficiency and some tricks=Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Henry
3) too many tricks killing the efficiency and end product=Neymar, Denilson, Quaresma, Robinho

About Arthur, he plays simple.
But I have a problem with him because for now it seems as if his end goal of his game is not to lose the ball.
While the end goal should be: pass the ball to attackers and create a chance as fast as possible.

Do you know who was born in 1992? Neymar. Robinho? 1984.

They grew up watching football on TV and listening the game on Radio just like you. Who were the ones they watched? Ronaldo, Romario, Bebeto and players like those.

Actually, a lot of those showplayers from today watched them

 

[Jcar]

There is a balance between: efficiency and tricks
Some players:
1. are all about efficiency and zero tricks
2. other have BOTH efficiency and tricks
3. and then some are all about tricks and with them tricks are more important than the actual score, more or less

So, you have guys, for example:
1) efficient, not too much tricks=Larsson, Stoichkov, Pedro, Villa, Etoo, Overmars
2) both efficiency and some tricks=Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Henry
3) too many tricks killing the efficiency and end product=Neymar, Denilson, Quaresma, Robinho

About Arthur, he plays simple.
But I have a problem with him because for now it seems as if his end goal of his game is not to lose the ball.
While the end goal should be: pass the ball to attackers and create a chance as fast as possible.

NO. FUCKING. WAY. Quaresma? Denilson? Robinho?

Are you drunk? Putting Neymar together with those? LOL

Why am i trying? Seriously? Dear lord.

 

[BBZ8800]

Do you know who was born in 1992? Neymar. Robinho? 1984.

They grew up watching football on TV and listening the game on Radio just like you. Who were the ones they watched? Ronaldo, Romario, Bebeto and players like those.

Actually, a lot of those showplayers from today watched them

Culture in Brasil is different.
You play football on beaches in your country and everything is about fun, tricks, joking.

Compare that to German or Swedish mentality.

Now, Barca is from Spain and their our mentality is close to Brasilian Joga Bonita.
But still, even among Brasilian players you have those who have a fine balance between tricks and end product and you have guys like Neymar, Denilson and Robinho.

Someone will say that I don't like Brasilian players. I love Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Cafu, R9, Alves.
They are examples of quality mixed with Joga Bonita.

But Neymar and Robinho are for me: too much tricks, too less end product.
Their balance is off.

Neymar from 2015 had a right balance of simple play, tricks and efficiency and played the best football of his life.
Later, when he moved away from simpler, faster, more efficient play=he became his classical self: ballhogger, killing teamplay, slowing down the play.
I know, he can still be decisive and everything.
I am just saying that his style from the last few years is too much show, too less efficiency for my taste, and obviously for a lot of other guys here.

He had talent to be way more efficient player than he is.
But his personality and his Brasilian roots (where people are more excited by a pure show than for example Northern Europeans) have ruined that option.

 

[Jcar]

Is he serious? Did BBZ8800 already made a comparison between Neymar and other players of that level?

I just can't believe, he clearly hates the guy. He is posting with tendentious hate

Edit: Okay, he said that Neymar has talent, its okay now.

 

[BBZ8800]

Is he serious? Did BBZ8800 already made a comparrion between Neymar and other players of that level?

I just can't believe, he clearly hates the guy. He is posting with tendentious hate

The point is not their level of quality.
You are missing a point.

A point is that their play could have been way better, but they went too much to=a show route.

Let's say that Robinho could have been a player of a quality 9/10.
But due to too many tricks, he turned into a 7/10 level of a player.

Neymar could have been a Ballon D Or level.
But due to his way of playing, he is on a level of 5th or 10th best player in the world.

That is the point.
They could have been way better players if they would have lowered amount of unneeded tricks and played more efficient.

But I guess that for you Neymar is the 2nd best player in the world even currently, so maybe we should stop here since you won't understand my point of view, if you rate Neymar that highly.

 

[Zica]

Culture in Brasil is different.
You play football on beaches in your country and everything is about fun, tricks, joking.

Compare that to German or Swedish mentality.

Now, Barca is from Spain and their our mentality is close to Brasilian Joga Bonita.
But still, even among Brasilian players you have those who have a fine balance between tricks and end product and you have guys like Neymar, Denilson and Robinho.

Someone will say that I don't like Brasilian players. I love Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Cafu, R9, Alves.
They are examples of quality mixed with Joga Bonita.

But Neymar and Robinho are for me: too much tricks, too less end product.
Their balance is off.

Neymar from 2015 had a right balance of simple play, tricks and efficiency and played the best football of his life.
Later, when he moved away from simpler, faster, more efficient play=he became his classical self: ballhogger, killing teamplay, slowing down the play.
I know, he can still be decisive and everything.
I am just saying that his style from the last few years is too much show, too less efficiency for my taste, and obviously for a lot of other guys here.

He had talent to be way more efficient player than he is.
But his personality and his Brasilian roots (where people are more excited by a pure show than for example Northern Europeans) have ruined that option.

Funny ... because Neymar scores more than Ronaldinho ever did and probably assists just as much while playing a very similar position. That's end product. But I agree Neymar hogs the ball quite a bit at PSG. At Barca he had a good balance.

 

[Jcar]

The point is not their level of quality.
You are missing a point.

A point is that their play could have been way better, but they went too much to=a show route.

Let's say that Robinho could have been a player of a quality 9/10.
But due to too many tricks, he turned into a 7/10 level of a player.

Neymar could have been a Ballon D Or level.
But due to his way of playing, he is on a level of 5th or 10th best player in the world.

That is the point.
They could have been way better players if they would have lowered amount of unneeded tricks and played more efficient.

But I guess that for you Neymar is the 2nd best player in the world even currently, so maybe we should stop here since you won't understand my point of view, if you rate Neymar that highly.

Neymar is nothing today. How can you evaluate a player that doesn't play? He has been injured all the time and plays in a weak league. What i was talking was about his talent and what he already accomplished. You yourself recognise that his talent is ballon d or level. So for me was hard to understand how a player with this amount of talent could be in the same sentence as Denilson and Quaresma. Cant you see?

Neymar is for me the second best in talent after Messi, but is nowhere as near in performance (nowadays). His own personality is his best enemy.

Neymar and Robinho turned into the players they are because of the style they had. Of course they always had the physical talent and understandment of football to be amazing players, but is their styles that made they achieve this level.

 

[NKMaribor]

It doesn't matter. They still have one of the most expensive wage bills in the world. Saying it's extremely healthy is a bit silly.

Yeah, they have a huge revenue stream, but so do we. Ours is higher than their revenue stream. We could easily afford to sign Neymar if we're going to use your logic, but it wouldn't be practical or smart. We and Real Madrid know Neymar isn't worth what they're asking. That's the reason why we haven't signed Neymar at the moment.... and that's the reason why Madrid hasn't even bother putting in an offer.

Your rhetoric tells you exactly zero about health of wage bill. 57% is well bellow UEFA`s margins, and it implies healthy as fck.

Secondly, Real Madrid does not include funds from selling players in their operating budget, while Barca does. Madrid has higher revenue, substantially lower wages - both relatively and absolutely speaking. They have also spent next to nothing in last years, and managed to balance their books. They can afford 5 year amortization for Neymar, and his wages. Especially if they ditch Bale and co.. Now explain to me how can Barcelona do the same, when they have struggled to close Griezmann already?

You could use some objectivity.

 

[NKMaribor]

Of course they have better finances than us, most teams do. Our spending on wages and transfers has been awful in recent years. But to say Madrid can easily go out and spend 250m euros on Neymar after they just spent 300m euros already this summer is a bit silly..... regardless if you pay them in installments. Our wage bill is only fucked because we pay Messi so much. He makes up a good % of it.

If we're going by his logic, we could easily do it in installments of 4 or 5 years. Our net spend is something like 100m euros over the last 2 years.

Have you heard of amortization? They have not spent 300M. Even if you speak about net spent which is 190M it means nothing considering transfers are made in installments. Transfers are amortized over period of time.

 

[Potroh]

When Barto will sign Neymar, he will say: we needed his drama, antics, rolling and backwards dribbling on the pitch

Ah my naive boy, don't underestimate Neymar's commercial and marketing value - apart from the pitch.
Whichever club he plays for - it can be Real Madrid, Barca or whatever, his presence and face brings serious millions to that club.

Otherwise it's interesting to see that this thread slowly turned to be the "home" of Neymar's haters.
Barcaforum nowadays seems to be the place to express hatred and disgust, rather than objective matters or footballing ones... Sad...

 

[xxxxxx]

Your rhetoric tells you exactly zero about health of wage bill. 57% is well bellow UEFA`s margins, and it implies healthy as fck.

Secondly, Real Madrid does not include funds from selling players in their operating budget, while Barca does. Madrid has higher revenue, substantially lower wages - both relatively and absolutely speaking. They have also spent next to nothing in last years, and managed to balance their books. They can afford 5 year amortization for Neymar, and his wages. Especially if they ditch Bale and co.. Now explain to me how can Barcelona do the same, when they have struggled to close Griezmann already?

You could use some objectivity.

And we could afford to pay in installments with our revenue stream if we wanted. It's just not practical paying 50m a year for like 5 years. It's actually extremely dumb. Our wage bill is only higher because of Messi. In 2 years we'll be in a much better shape, because I highly doubt Messi will sign a new contract.

 

[BBZ8800]

Funny ... because Neymar scores more than Ronaldinho ever did and probably assists just as much while playing a very similar position. That's end product. But I agree Neymar hogs the ball quite a bit at PSG. At Barca he had a good balance.

With that logic, Neymar is better than Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Stoichkov, Figo, Henry, Etoo.
He is scoring more than all of them.

But then, the differences between clubs in 90s and 00s and today were not the same.
In 90s, Barca and Real were spending let's say 50M yearly for transfers.
And small clubs were spending 5-10M.

Today, Barca is spending 200-300M yearly.
Small teams are still spending 5-15M.

Look at how the number of goals scored per season grew over years:
Barca and Real:
1991': 74 - 63
92: 87 - 78
93: 87 - 75
94: 91 - 61
95: 60 - 76
96: 72 - 75
97: 102* - 85
98: 78 - 63
99: 87 - 77
00: 70 - 58
01: 80 - 81
02: 65 - 69
03: 63 - 86
04: 63 - 72
05: 73 - 71
06: 80 - 70
07: 78 - 66
08: 76 - 84
09: 105*- 83
10: 98 - 102
11: 95 - 102
12: 114 - 121
13: 115 - 103
14: 100 - 104
15: 110 - 118
16: 112 - 110
17: 116 - 106
18: 99 - 94
19: 90 - 63

Or look at the number of points won by a champion:
2000: Deportivo 69, Barca 64
2001: Real 80, Depor 73
2002: Valencia 75, Depor 68
2003: Real 78, Sociedad 76
2004: Valencia 77, Barca 72
= in 5 seasons, you had 5 different clubs in top 2: Real, Barca, Valencia, Depor, Sociedad.

2010: Barca 99, Real 96
2011: Barca 96, Real 92
2012: Real 100, Barca 91
2013: Barca 100, Real 85
= two horse race with 90-100 points and 100-120 goals per season scored.
Does that look the same as 90s and early 00s?
Or Bayern in Germany?
Or Psg in France?
Or Juve in Italy?
= all countries have 1-2 clubs whoa re too rich and are just playing football for fun, winning titles and breaking records easily.
While in 90s, in Italy for example 7 teams were fighting for a title in each season (Juve, Milan, Inter, Roma, Lazio, Parma, Fiorentina), or several clubs in Spain: Barca, Real , Valencia, Deportivo, Atletico.
Today there is no competition.
Each country has 1-2 super rich clubs who are buying all world class players and the opponents are losing 5:0 for fun, or 10:1 in France.
During Ronaldinho, we were winning 2:0 majority of matches.
Those were normal matches back then.
Today, CR7 can score 4-5 against Eibar and similar in the last 10 minutes.
Ronaldinho was scoring 10 goals per whole season.
Do you think that CR7 is THAT better than Ronnie? I don't.

In 2000, Barca had Figo, Rivaldo, Kluivert, Lucho, Pep and won 64 points.
We scored 70 goals.
Real won a CL, had Raul-Morientes and scored 58 goals over 38 rounds.
In 2018, we had Rakitic-Gomes-Paulinho midfield and won 93 points and almost had a season of invincibles, lol.

So, if Neymar's numbers at Barca or from any other attacker are inflated, maybe it is because Barca/Real became too rich and thus had way better teams than their opponents (compared to 90s or 00s), so it is easier to have better numbers than in the past.