Sailor Mars
Well-known member
The fact is that Neymar is the best international player of his generation. Would have won much more with Brazil if he had better attacking talent around him like Ronaldinho did.
Neymar Jr.
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If you talk about PSG Ronaldinho, ofc Neymar is milesssssssss ahead of him in term of goals contribution and overall playstyle too.
Ronaldinho was a genius BUT he was already (always) a party boy and were (sadly) antagonized by his coach due to his bad behaviour. Imagine how bad his atitude was for the coach to bench him so much. He was not good enough considering his talent except when he really wanted too. When he wanted, he had some incredible performances like againt OM or that goal against Guingamp.
Peak Ronaldinho is without a doubt higher than peak Neymar but overall, i would say that Neymar has been more consistently good for a longer period of time. Neymar has been good for Santos, Bar?a, PSG and that is with 2 very big injuries during his time at PSG and one big injury during a WC.
i_bleed_blaugrana
Senior Member
With Ronnie, its tough because I cannot deny he had a special generation around him. Plus he had a much shorter prime compared to Neymar.
First off to talk about contributions for the Selecao, Ronnie’s generation really took hold shortly after 94. Cafu and Ronaldo were in the squad but Ronaldo didnt even play while Cafu was on the periphery as well. I think the 94 squad was more of a last hurrah for the 80s generation that was beyond ordinary comparatively. This isn't to discredit legends like Taffarel, Jarzinho and even Dunga in some regards but pound for pound, I think that Brazil was weaker comparatively than Neymar's Brazil squads over the years. And even then, Romario was able to lead them to a World Cup.
To be very fair here, Neymar was very unlucky not to be in the squad in 2010, as was Ronnie by some regards. For Ney in particular, his legacy could have been stronger had he been at that tournament. Kaka could have used his help. But even still, the 2014 squad on paper was very strong and I think it is a bit much to say that the sole reason for Ronaldinho's success with Brazil was due to his teammates. I think you are being a bit harsh on Ronnie and his overall performance in 2002, no one is pretending that he eclipsed Ronaldo that tournament but he was a very important part of that team and system and produced match-winning performances in big stake games. You can poo-poo it all you want, that performance against England was fucking monumental when you consider the players he played against and the form they were in at the time.
And overall, my only criticism of Neymar with Brazil is there just haven't been enough game-changing performances from him when the stakes were really high. Messi can be guilty of this too in some regards, international setups are complicated and I do not rate Ronnie and all of those other players higher than Neymar strictly due to international success. It is a factor but this is the sort nuance necessary here:
I would say the biggest factor over why I would rate even Kaka higher overall than Neymar because for a certain period of time, Kaka was unquestionably the best player in the world. Ronnie for about three years was unquestionably the best player in the world and not only that, he reached a level of unplayability during this time that very few players can either match or exceed. He marked a generation and outside of Brazil, Neymar is still chasing these sort of ghosts and heights as a player. He maybe eclipsed Ronaldo for that six months that Messi was injured in 15-16. Otherwise, he has always been in Messi and Ronaldo's shadow.
Even looking at Ronnie v. Neymar here: Ronnie was a more complete player and doing more things at a world-class/unplayable level than Neymar was. Apart of this too has to do with player profile and style. Neymar has always possessed more of a striker's mentality to his game than Ronaldinho has ever had. I will reiterate: the best Brazilian Barca player to compare Neymar to is Romario in this specific regard and in my analysis, I really did not see consistent output from a playmaking perspective (chance creating, assists, passing completion percentage, etc.) from Neymar until he went to PSG and even then, he didn't really get there until his second season in Paris.
I think people like comparing Ney to Ronnie because they both were faces of both Brazil/Barca for a time and because of how they dribble. Outside of that, again different players for me and part of why I and other "boomers" (even tho I'm not a boomer lol) rate Ronnie's prime in such high regard is because he really was an AM/Winger producing world-class goal scoring output for a time.
Another thing that is really underrated about Ronnie too was how physical he was. You couldn't come up and just body and push him over the way defenders do to Neymar, he was very difficult to get the ball off of from a standstill position and at top speed as a result. He also could snap up in the box for the odd header here and there too due to this, with his goal against Inter when he was clearly declining a pretty easy example of this.
Despite the history, I still have a lot of love for Neymar and am not a hater of his by and stretch of the imagination. I didn't like it and it certainly hurt us and probably him in the long-run but I always understood why he left so, don't accuse me of being a hater for not rating him higher and he has certainly reached a very high level of football that merits him being in the conversation.
That said, I just think not only Ronnie but other Brazilians have had bigger impacts on the game and their position while reaching similar or better levels of success at a club/international level than Neymar has. Most of it isn't really his fault even, he is dramatically unlucky in a lot of ways and sometimes his judgement and personality lol, has made this a bit worse. But even when considering the numbers Neymar has, I just have a hard time rating him higher than past Brazilians.
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serghei
Senior Member
Neymar has been let down by his superficial nature in his career, too much of a manchild that lacks a competitive edge when the going gets tough, whereas players like Ronnie or Kaka used to really come out and flat out lead by example in those moments. Maradona used to call this bronca, I believe that extra gear that happens when you're at your most challenged and pissed state does exist. Neymar only showed that briefly vs PSG in that 6-1, where I felt he was really rising up to the leadership levels of Ronnie, Eto'o, or even Messi. As a player profile, he could've been better than both Ronaldinho and Kaka. But there's something about him that is self-destructive. Probably entourage and family dragged him back and stoped him from reaching what his talent could have allowed him, but ultimately he was in control and fecked it up.
With the team the sheiks and their oil gazillions are building, he'll probably win his CL in the end, but ship has sailed for Neymar and his legacy.
With the team the sheiks and their oil gazillions are building, he'll probably win his CL in the end, but ship has sailed for Neymar and his legacy.
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feggydinho
Senior Member
I think we downplay Neymar a lot, maybe because of his character and the way he left but stat-wise, he already has more goals and assists than dinho (for both club and country) in way lesser games and has been quite consistent for a long time now. Peak Ronaldinho would've still been overshadowed if he played in peak Messi's era. Neymar's 2015 performance was top-notch (and it took top Messi and Ronaldo to beat him in the ballon d'or race).
BBZ8800
Senior Member
As [MENTION=10166]i_bleed_blaugrana[/MENTION] said, we need to mention impact and impact in big games.
Younger fans probably don't remember and understand that Ronaldinho was a catalyst of Barca's domination which later continued with Pep and Messi.
La Liga, Barca's rankings:
2001: 4th place, 63 points
2002: 4th place, 64 points
2003: 6th place, 56 points
----------------------------
Ronaldinho came (and in the first season, he played alone without Etoo, Deco, Guily, Larsson, Messi, Edmilson, Van Bommel, Belletti, Sylvinho)
2004: 2nd place, 72 points
2005: 1st place, 84 points
2006: 1st place, 82 points + winning a CL after 14 years of mysery
On the other hand, Neymar's impact:
2012: 2nd, 91 points
2013: 1st, 100 points
------------------------
2014: 2nd, 87 points
2015: 1st, 91 points
2016: 1st, 91 points
2017: 2nd, 90 points
------------------------
2018: 1st, 93 points
2019: 1st, 87 points
-- 4 seasons without Neymar: 92,8 points
-- 4 seasons with Neymar: 89,8 points
-- 4 seasons without Neymar (2 before and 2 after him): 3 La Ligas out of 4
-- 4 seasons with Neymar: 2 La Ligas out of 4
Ok, this is simplified, but still.
In terms of trophies, wins, there isn't any actual difference in HAVING and NOT HAVING Neymar in a team.
The only difference is 222 millions.
In Ronaldinho's case, on the other hand, he has elevated a crappy team from early 00s a lot immidiately in his first season, without a help from Deco, Etoo, Guily and friends.
Some videos from his first, 2003-04 season.
His debut match at Camp Nou and he does this. Rijkaard's reaction tells everything:
Compilation video from 2003-04 season.
He played more as a CAM and way deeper than as a LW from 2005 and later.
Also, he was so strong, fast and explosive in that first season:
And Zlatan's words about Ronaldinho versus Neymar:
Younger fans probably don't remember and understand that Ronaldinho was a catalyst of Barca's domination which later continued with Pep and Messi.
La Liga, Barca's rankings:
2001: 4th place, 63 points
2002: 4th place, 64 points
2003: 6th place, 56 points
----------------------------
Ronaldinho came (and in the first season, he played alone without Etoo, Deco, Guily, Larsson, Messi, Edmilson, Van Bommel, Belletti, Sylvinho)
2004: 2nd place, 72 points
2005: 1st place, 84 points
2006: 1st place, 82 points + winning a CL after 14 years of mysery
On the other hand, Neymar's impact:
2012: 2nd, 91 points
2013: 1st, 100 points
------------------------
2014: 2nd, 87 points
2015: 1st, 91 points
2016: 1st, 91 points
2017: 2nd, 90 points
------------------------
2018: 1st, 93 points
2019: 1st, 87 points
-- 4 seasons without Neymar: 92,8 points
-- 4 seasons with Neymar: 89,8 points
-- 4 seasons without Neymar (2 before and 2 after him): 3 La Ligas out of 4
-- 4 seasons with Neymar: 2 La Ligas out of 4
Ok, this is simplified, but still.
In terms of trophies, wins, there isn't any actual difference in HAVING and NOT HAVING Neymar in a team.
The only difference is 222 millions.
In Ronaldinho's case, on the other hand, he has elevated a crappy team from early 00s a lot immidiately in his first season, without a help from Deco, Etoo, Guily and friends.
Some videos from his first, 2003-04 season.
His debut match at Camp Nou and he does this. Rijkaard's reaction tells everything:
Compilation video from 2003-04 season.
He played more as a CAM and way deeper than as a LW from 2005 and later.
Also, he was so strong, fast and explosive in that first season:
And Zlatan's words about Ronaldinho versus Neymar:
feggydinho
Senior Member
I get your analysis, but we most likely wouldn't have won that 2015 CL without Neymar. he was one of our top three performers in that season and we haven't won it since then (hence a difference in having him, as he also played a vital role in taking PSG to CL finals last year though his quality and speed has now reduced). I still think Ronaldinho would've been overshadowed if he played in Messi's peak years, Messi even won the 2008 Olympics when Ronaldinho played for Brazil. I'm not downplaying Ronaldinho but I think we downplay Neymar a lot
Jadentheman
Active member
Neymar did start and lead most counterattacks. When he left there was a void in the way Barca played in recent years.
the void is coz of the financial mess that we got into - where a good share was also shared by this ass for betraying the squad that had such high esteem for him! And of course for not finding even a decent replacement (stupid board was corrupt as well as incompetent)
Example, was Neymar that much better than the left forwards that we had before him? Henry, Villa & Pedro.
Yes, he was. He still is.
He wasn't better than prime Henry, but he was certainly better than the version we had at Barcelona.
Scored more than Villa, Pedro. Better dribbler than both. Better playmaker than both. Highest joint goalscorer in the UCL in our treble winning season. In 16/17 Neymar was legit ball carrying from central midfield to the final third to overcompensate for our shit midfield and was one of the best chance creators in Europe. His worst season end product wise, btw.
Whatever narrative you think you can spin, Neymar was better for us all on fronts; end product, quality, and tactically. The only negative is that he left and kick started the worst spending spree in our club's history.
feggydinho
Senior Member
Spot on
jamrock
Senior Member
Like I said, in the grand scheme of things, which obviously includes more than just listing a bunch of "stats" as an inside left, if we were to switch all 3 in our 3 cl winning teams at their peak, we would likey still have won the CL on all those occasions, people acting like he carried us on his back to win the CL, we had an inform messi & Suarez up front, plug a informed villa of pedro with those two guys, they are going to pop still.
Also because we didn't have a prime xavi doesn't make that midfield shit, rakitic was excellent for us that season, he brought his excellent form from the 2014 WC right into that season, it want prime iniesta and busquets but they were from from average that season, Luis just had us playing a lot more vertically, transitioning the ball upfront a lot faster than we did in previous seasons, just don't that midfield confused with the ones that game after it, when Luis went full loco.
Better player than both obviously, did he bring more to us than villa & perdo when we won Cl with those guys, if he did it wasn't by much.
Is he better than Ronaldinho, helllll no
Better than villa, Pedro & Mbappe, helll yeaaaeaa,
Also because we didn't have a prime xavi doesn't make that midfield shit, rakitic was excellent for us that season, he brought his excellent form from the 2014 WC right into that season, it want prime iniesta and busquets but they were from from average that season, Luis just had us playing a lot more vertically, transitioning the ball upfront a lot faster than we did in previous seasons, just don't that midfield confused with the ones that game after it, when Luis went full loco.
Better player than both obviously, did he bring more to us than villa & perdo when we won Cl with those guys, if he did it wasn't by much.
Is he better than Ronaldinho, helllll no
Better than villa, Pedro & Mbappe, helll yeaaaeaa,
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