Neymar Jr.

[Andresito]

Aye Messi top 5 in his peak.

 

[malvolio]

Aye Messi top 5 in his peak.

and you're just trying to be nice here. he's struggling to make top 10 imho.

 

[vegitot]

Everybody know that Weghorst is the best no 10 of all time.

Clearly Bayern martial, easily the best player in Bayern history if he plays there. You know, insane pressing.

Also Bruno Fernades for his "pressing"

 

[fergus90]

Messi is the undisputed number 1. Pele is an absolute legend but counted goals he scored in his back garden.

 

[Birdy]

Club level is not that high currently and national football is steps above what it used to be. Also, pressure is 100% more in a world cup vs the average CL game, bar final semi-final.
You what is the truth though? If Messi had lost the WC, it would suddenly be much more important and hard for some. Hate is hate, you can't combat it with arguments.
On topic, Neymar is like Dembele. Just can't stay fit.

I don't know if you are replying to me in particular.
I never ever claimed WC is more hard or important than anything in club football. Neither I ever took part in this silly debate "messi has to win the WC to prove X", which was always part of the Messi-Ronaldo echo chamber of fanboys both sides

My opinion had always been the same. Same before the last WC, same after, didn't change any bit of that:
WC maybe has more prestige due to history, etc, but is several tiers below club football, be it CL, top 4 domestic leagues, even EL.
and when I say several, I mean several...

 

[KingLeo10]

The more you reason with Birdy, the more he doubles down on his shit takes

Now, WC is SEVERAL TIERS below Bundesliga, Serie A, and Europa

Anyone with a brain, meanwhile, knows that the hierarchy (in terms of playing level) goes something like this:

1) CL clashes involving all time great club sides/side (Barca - United 09, Barca - RM 2011, Bayern v Real clashes in early to mid 00s, Barca v Bayern 2015 etc.)

2) WC clashes involving historical giants who are playing at high level (France - Argentina, Germany - Argentina etc.); current CL is about this level because we're in an era where top tier football talent is dry after coming off Messi/CR7/Xavi/Iniesta/Modric/Kroos/Benzema/Suarez/Neymar/Robben/Ribery/Di Maria etc etc.

3) Usual WC KOs

.
.
.

4) Europa LMAO

League games are a different breed due to the lack of sudden elimination format. But in terms of playing level, the Clasicos in early to mid 00s and City - Pool games in the heyday of Pep-Klopp rivalry probably rank at the level of 1) or 2) purely in terms of playing level.

 

[vegitot]

I don't know if you are replying to me in particular.
I never ever claimed WC is more hard or important than anything in club football. Neither I ever took part in this silly debate "messi has to win the WC to prove X", which was always part of the Messi-Ronaldo echo chamber of fanboys both sides

My opinion had always been the same. Same before the last WC, same after, didn't change any bit of that:
WC maybe has more prestige due to history, etc, but is several tiers below club football, be it CL, top 4 domestic leagues, even EL.
and when I say several, I mean several...

Aye

 

[ajnotkeith]

The more you reason with Birdy, the more he doubles down on his shit takes

Now, WC is SEVERAL TIERS below Bundesliga, Serie A, and Europa

Anyone with a brain, meanwhile, knows that the hierarchy (in terms of playing level) goes something like this:

1) CL clashes involving all time great club sides/side (Barca - United 09, Barca - RM 2011, Bayern v Real clashes in early to mid 00s, Barca v Bayern 2015 etc.)

2) WC clashes involving historical giants who are playing at high level (France - Argentina, Germany - Argentina etc.); current CL is about this level because we're in an era where top tier football talent is dry after coming off Messi/CR7/Xavi/Iniesta/Modric/Kroos/Benzema/Suarez/Neymar/Robben/Ribery/Di Maria etc etc.

3) Usual WC KOs

.
.
.

4) Europa LMAO

League games are a different breed due to the lack of sudden elimination format. But in terms of playing level, the Clasicos in early to mid 00s and City - Pool games in the heyday of Pep-Klopp rivalry probably rank at the level of 1) or 2) purely in terms of playing level.

Maybe in terms of reputation, but it's just impossible for NT football to be the same level as any top league or even EL, the players are only training with each other and rehearsing tactical concepts for a few weeks or even days. The quality of the players sure but physically and tactically its dwarfed. Low tactical level and hardly any chemistry built between players.

At club level they are revising tactics 6 days a week for years, in the NTs they can basically only tell you go play because there's so little time. Even the EL games will be far more tactically complex for this reason.

 

[KingLeo10]

Maybe in terms of reputation, but it's just impossible for NT football to be the same level as any top league or even EL, the players are only training with each other and rehearsing tactical concepts for a few weeks or even days. The quality of the players sure but physically and tactically its dwarfed. Low tactical level and hardly any chemistry built between players.

At club level they are revising tactics 6 days a week for years, in the NTs they can basically only tell you go play because there's so little time. Even the EL games will be far more tactically complex for this reason.

I find it hard to believe that France or Argentina would lose to any Europa league side over a sample size of a few games (Europa stock has boomed this year due to some teams who are CL level being in Europa but on average it's sides like Zenit and Dynamo man...FFS)

I'm sorry but the much superior player quality (especially for France) would trump tactics...and it's not like these players at elite NTs don't have access to tactical knowledge at their big clubs either.

 

[KingLeo10]

It's becoming clear to me that there's a new class of football fans who are enamored with pressing/physicality/cohesion/tactics/analytics and what not. To the level that they've started to believe this consistently trumps talent level/ mentality/ ability to perform in pressure situations etc.

Football, as with most human endeavors at the highest level, is all about moments and for now, I don't see the evidence that superstars/generational talents are being UNILATERALLY outdone by "hypermodern" football. The WC final came down to Messi/Mbappe/Di Maria...RM keep beating EPL "hypermodern" teams like Pool/City/Chelsea etc.

Maybe things will be different in another 5-10 years but for now, calma

 

[Birdy]

The more you reason with Birdy, the more he doubles down on his shit takes

Now, WC is SEVERAL TIERS below Bundesliga, Serie A, and Europa

Anyone with a brain, meanwhile, knows that the hierarchy (in terms of playing level) goes something like this:

1) CL clashes involving all time great club sides/side (Barca - United 09, Barca - RM 2011, Bayern v Real clashes in early to mid 00s, Barca v Bayern 2015 etc.)

2) WC clashes involving historical giants who are playing at high level (France - Argentina, Germany - Argentina etc.); current CL is about this level because we're in an era where top tier football talent is dry after coming off Messi/CR7/Xavi/Iniesta/Modric/Kroos/Benzema/Suarez/Neymar/Robben/Ribery/Di Maria etc etc.

3) Usual WC KOs

.
.
.

4) Europa LMAO

League games are a different breed due to the lack of sudden elimination format. But in terms of playing level, the Clasicos in early to mid 00s and City - Pool games in the heyday of Pep-Klopp rivalry probably rank at the level of 1) or 2) purely in terms of playing level.

You are conflating prestige/glamour/reputation/statute/fame etc of certain ties and competitions (some due to history) with how football value can be estimated.
A prestigious competition doesn't reflect at a corresponding level of football.
The WC is ideal example

It's becoming clear to me that there's a new class of football fans who are enamored with pressing/physicality/cohesion/tactics/analytics and what not. To the level that they've started to believe this consistently trumps talent level/ mentality/ ability to perform in pressure situations etc.

Football, as with most human endeavors at the highest level, is all about moments and for now, I don't see the evidence that superstars/generational talents are being UNILATERALLY outdone by "hypermodern" football. The WC final came down to Messi/Mbappe/Di Maria...RM keep beating EPL "hypermodern" teams like Pool/City/Chelsea etc.

Maybe things will be different in another 5-10 years but for now, calma

The problem is you take cup competition as your yardstick, and not the most accurate or reflective format which is the league.
You are conflating prestige/reputation, etc of a trophy (CL or WC) with what is the most reflective competition to test the relative strengths of teams.
RM wouldn't have won any of their last 5 CLs had they been competing in a league format

That's why the Superleague, the real one in a LEAGUE format, will be a real revolution.

 

[Birdy]

Maybe in terms of reputation, but it's just impossible for NT football to be the same level as any top league or even EL, the players are only training with each other and rehearsing tactical concepts for a few weeks or even days. The quality of the players sure but physically and tactically its dwarfed. Low tactical level and hardly any chemistry built between players.

At club level they are revising tactics 6 days a week for years, in the NTs they can basically only tell you go play because there's so little time. Even the EL games will be far more tactically complex for this reason.

Pretty much this.

If France NT had the same individuals training week in week out under a top coach, no question as to whether they could lift any trophy.
But the reality of NT football is what you neatly describe.
That's why it's idiotic to claim that NT football sides can easily sweep any, even 2nd tier, club side that trains together week in week out

 

[Gnidrologist]

What about sports that have only cup competitions and no 'leagues'. Sportsmen winning them more regularly than others are doing it "by chances" and it doesn't reflect the true standing in hierarchy? The league format is actually more accommodating for certain types of clubs with certain styles, club structure, pros and cons, which actually makes them suspect, when they have to walk the walk on the biggest of stages. They shit their pants, when it's not another bottom feeder in familiar environment and the refs are not their league chums to deal with and they can't win trophies just by preying on the weak (like the current Barca is on course to do ).

 

[ajnotkeith]

What about sports that have only cup competitions and no 'leagues'. Sportsmen winning them more regularly than others are doing it "by chances" and it doesn't reflect the true standing in hierarchy. The league format is actually more accommodating for certain types of clubs with certain styles pros and cons, which actually makes them suspect, when they have to walk the walk on the biggest of stages. They shit their pants, when it's not another bottom feeder in unfamiliar environment and neutral refs to deal with and they can't win trophies just by praying on the weak (like the current Barca is on trial to do ).

I agree, I think both a cup and league format should be considered when evaluating the strength of a team.

A league format for the big teams, is essentially testing - who can beat teams worse than them most often. Which big team can use their quality advantage to beat up on smaller teams more consistently.
The majority of the teams you play in the league are ones with significantly worse team and budget than you, and those games are generally where leagues are won.

A cup format is testing how effective a team is against the best, in a high pressure environment, as you only get a limited number of gos. Here more intangible things like personality, character, mental strength of the team can come into play and further you will face teams with similar resources to you. You also will have to prove adaptable to different foreign styles you may face (current Barca is a prime example, it struggles when teams in Europe can match its intensity as opposed to La Liga)..

The best teams were good at both. Like Birdy said above the SuperLeague is interesting because it parlays both these elements.

 

[KingLeo10]

Pretty much this.

If France NT had the same individuals training week in week out under a top coach, no question as to whether they could lift any trophy.
But the reality of NT football is what you neatly describe.
That's why it's idiotic to claim that NT football sides can easily sweep any, even 2nd tier, club side that trains together week in week out

You're moving goalposts and flat out lying now.

Nowhere have I claimed they would sweep aside any club side. In fact, the hierarchy I proposed shows otherwise.

I acknowledged the best NT sides are worse than all time great club sides which not only had the top talent but also played together week in week out. Best NTs right now are about comparable with the best club sides right now (worse in some cases, better in some) because the NT sides have the talent edge in some cases but are inferior in tactics/cohesion.

You're the one making retarded statements that teams in Europa like PSV, Dynamo, Zenit, Galatasaray, Sevilla etc. are SEVERAL tiers above the best NT sides.

As if a bunch of no name players can hold up against superior talent in a large sample size. The way Barca is walking LL right now is proof of that...we have far more talent than the average LL sides...their tactics/cohesion/pressing amount to...losing