Philippe Coutinho

[JamDav1982]

Coutinho would be better in a team that played quicker football and was more 'chaotic' with pace/movement around him and freedom to move... but Messi is clearly superior and backwards argument to make out team should not be playing for Messi at moment in order to make an inferior player better.

 

[Laplacian]

Coutinho would be better in a team that played quicker football and was more 'chaotic' with pace/movement around him and freedom to move...

Agreed. Perhaps a team like Bayern Munich would suit him better?

 

[vegitot]

Well, you know, he plays in a team where Messi is an absolute legend and everyone have a weird respect/obssession/fear of him.

If Cou would be a crap who can't create and can't shoot in matches without Messi, I would give up from him.

Till then, not.

Playing for Fc Messi in 2020/2021 must be a really weird place tacticaly and psychologicaly wise.

Coutinho clearly declines. This is not even need to question.

He didn't excel at Bayern without Messi either. And im sure Messi has no reason for affect Coutinho's long shot.

He simply passes his best. Just like everyone.

 

[JamDav1982]

Agreed. Perhaps a team like Bayern Munich would suit him better?

Bayern played more with pacey wingers and a ten that pressed and got in box. So not really suiting all that much.

Even if did ok and could have done better.

 

[vegitot]

Bayern played more with pacey wingers and a ten that pressed and got in box. So not really suiting all that much.

Even if did ok and could have done better.

Is it affected even his touch/shooting/passing ability???

Coutinho just lost his spark and passed his best. It is that simple.

 

[JamDav1982]

Is it affected even his touch/shooting/passing ability???

Coutinho just lost his spark and passed his best. It is that simple.

His head does seem to have gone a bit as well but dont agree that means he is past his best in any physical way.

 

[serghei]

Coutinho would be better in a team that played quicker football and was more 'chaotic' with pace/movement around him and freedom to move... but Messi is clearly superior and backwards argument to make out team should not be playing for Messi at moment in order to make an inferior player better.

Pretty much this.

Coutinho would be playing well if some things would be different, but if Messi's form continues to improve as it has recently, the change would not improve the team.

In form, scoring Messi is still the best thing we have currently in the short term at least. The question remains for Messi if he can regain a consistent scoring form at this age. Or he'll drop off again and start walking carelessly on the field.

 

[mc_lovin]

Pretty much this.

Coutinho would be playing well if some things would be different, but if Messi's form continues to improve as it has recently, the change would not improve the team.

In form, scoring Messi is still the best thing we have currently in the short term at least. The question remains for Messi if he can regain a consistent scoring form at this age. Or he'll drop off again and start walking carelessly on the field.

I really dont get that line of reasoning. Basically applies to any player as well. I may have been more susceptible to it if there wasnt Pedri, whos 17/18, plays roughly the same position and shows much, much more.

 

[serghei]

I really dont get that line of reasoning. Basically applies to any player as well. I may have been more susceptible to it if there wasnt Pedri, whos 17/18, plays roughly the same position and shows much, much more.

Pedri plays differently. Coutinho, for example, one of his best traits is shooting from 16-20m range. When you play with Messi next to you, and this is visible with Pedri as well, you can't be ignoring him and look to attack the goal, to place a shot, or enter some combination with the striker and so on. He'll start to gesticulate, make you signs that he was asking for the ball and you ignored him, and so on.

Pedri is more like Iniesta. He likes to be a service player and doesn't shy away from playing in crowded areas, especially when Messi (another player who is awesome in crowded areas) is next to him.

Coutinho is more of a direct player who likes end to end games because they give him spaces to get his game going. And Coutinho when he has space, to get a bit of acceleration, he is at his best. Because in closed spaces he lacks that burst of pace over the first meters. And, also, his technique in short spaces when the opponents are very close to him is not that great. In comparison, this is one of Pedri's best assets, the way he handles the ball in short spaces when advancing with it in a direct, forward way is not an option.

Pedri is far more suited to a slower build-up game with possession and overloads, with quick touches to maneuver the ball in seemingly very crowded and closed zones. Similar to Messi. And Puig as well to a lesser extent.

In fewer words, Messi doesn't need a "10" or a "SS" next to him. Like Coutinho and Griezmann are. He needs a classic 9 ahead of him, two quick wingers, and at least an interior "8" or "6" supporting him centrally.

 

[Rory]

I really dont get that line of reasoning. Basically applies to any player as well. I may have been more susceptible to it if there wasnt Pedri, whos 17/18, plays roughly the same position and shows much, much more.

Agree entirely. Coutinho would be playing well....if coutinho was playing well. That?s the bottom line. He?s had 3 years outside of Liverpool. His best period was coincidentally with Valverde which is the furthest system from his best system of all the managers.

 

[Birdy]

Point is that he had one decent season where they barely made the top 4 in all his seasons there. The EPL at the time was also very weak as evidenced by the terrible performances from the higher placed PL clubs in European competitions, so make of it what you will but him having a purple patch of form for 1-1.5 years does not make him world class.
As for him being their best player, no... Most hyped sure but he wasn't clearly their best player.

Who was their best player in your opinion? After Suarez and before Van Dijk, Alisson coming, before Salah emerging? I don't see many options.
And really it's not about opinion here.
His contribution those years and the fact he was first on the team sheet under Klopp says it all.

Then, it was not a purple patch of form.
It starts in 2013 after he was transferred at Liverpool. He had immediate impact.
In 13/14 they lost the title when Gerrard slipped, and he was the second best player behind Suarez.
After Suarez left that summer he was consistently the best until he was transferred out, so for 4.5 years.
That's not a purple patch. Sorry

Just like the coutinho supporters say "Messi has declined, just accept it" (which only the absolutely deluded fanboys would disagree with) you need to do this for Coutinho too. Remember how Rooney who is 5 times the player Coutinho ever was declined quite badly by age 28/29?

Coutinho is 28 mate, Messi is 33. Decline for most footballers starts somewhere at 30-32.
When Cou was transferred in he was 26. And you say that at that age a sudden and abrupt decline started?
Not plausible, sorry


All in all, none of the 'Coutinho is shit' people has provided a single explanation for his apparent sudden decline at Barca.

What khaled, BBZ and Serghei said are much more plausible to explain Coutinho's strange case

 

[mc_lovin]

Pedri plays differently. Coutinho, for example, one of his best traits is shooting from 16-20m range. When you play with Messi next to you, and this is visible with Pedri as well, you can't be ignoring him and look to attack the goal, to place a shot, or enter some combination with the striker and so on. He'll start to gesticulate, make you signs that he was asking for the ball and you ignored him, and so on.

Pedri is more like Iniesta. He likes to be a service player and doesn't shy away from playing in crowded areas, especially when Messi (another player who is awesome in crowded areas) is next to him.

Coutinho is more of a direct player who likes end to end games because they give him spaces to get his game going. And Coutinho when he has space, to get a bit of acceleration, he is at his best. Because in closed spaces he lacks that burst of pace over the first meters. And, also, his technique in short spaces when the opponents are very close to him is not that great. In comparison, this is one of Pedri's best assets, the way he handles the ball in short spaces when advancing with it in a direct, forward way is not an option.

Pedri is far more suited to a slower build-up game with possession and overloads, with quick touches to maneuver the ball in seemingly very crowded and closed zones. Similar to Messi. And Puig as well to a lesser extent.

In fewer words, Messi doesn't need a "10" or a "SS" next to him. Like Coutinho and Griezmann are. He needs a classic 9 ahead of him, two quick wingers, and at least an interior "8" or "6" supporting him centrally.

Yeah, no. I dont let that count. Thats just trying to construct an argument why Coutinho isnt working and the oh so different Pedri is. Just look at him ffs. My first instinct is to hide sharp objects when I see him play. He looks miserable. And he looked miserable for Bayern as well.

He either lost what he had or he fluked a few season for a not challenging Liverpool side with no expectations.

 

[JamDav1982]

Yeah, no. I dont let that count. Thats just trying to construct an argument why Coutinho isnt working and the oh so different Pedri is. Just look at him ffs. My first instinct is to hide sharp objects when I see him play. He looks miserable. And he looked miserable for Bayern as well.

He either lost what he had or he fluked a few season for a not challenging Liverpool side with no expectations.

I doubt anyone cares if you 'let it count' when it is different opinions given.

 

[Rory]

If all coutinho has to show for himself is that he can be very good in a very specific system of playing, that, in my opinion doesn't make him a world class player. It makes him a product of a system of football that gave us James Milner as being the lead assist provider in the champions league in 2017/2018. The other two behind him also Liverpool players. Of course it's plausible Coutinho has declined. Mental decline is a thing. That's what happened to Coutinho, he realised he couldn't live with the 100m+ price tag because it brings weight on his shoulders. No longer can he afford to be the player that has a bit of flair, that looks flashy and scores a long range banger 1 in 10 attempts. He has to score or assist 30 goals a season with that price tag. He can't take on that responsibility.

Coutinho's decline started the 2018/2019 season because of the above. Not when transferred in at 26.

We bought him at the wrong time, for the wrong price and for the wrong system. Combine all that whilst having to compete with players in the squad who operating at half their own level easily brings 40 goals to the team you have someone who breaks mentally. Not entirely his fault. Hope we sell him and he recovers his form. He's very good in a great system. Surely that's all there is to it?

 

[JamDav1982]

Liverpool played different systems before Klopp arrived, played different systems with Klopp there across the time. Brazil played different systems as well.

All world class players more or less have a system that suits them for majority of career. Nothing unique.

Coutinho was never just a player that 'had a bit of flair and hit ball from 30 yards'.