malvolio
Senior Member
exactly. apart from kante, they didn't have outstanding players. havertz might be one, but not sold on him yet.
Philippe Coutinho
- Thread starter xXKonan
- Start date
exactly. apart from kante, they didn't have outstanding players. havertz might be one, but not sold on him yet.
Lewa is a great striker, not at all close to being a "magician" the way BBZ's describing.
Leverkusen's Havertz was a magician, and a good goalscorer. He's yet to show that at Chelsea, hopefully he will. Players of his type are exceedingly rare.
Oh, Marcelo! I completely forgot about him. To me Modric's more of a metronome than a magician. He's the prototypical "efficient" European midfielder.
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Fati_Future_BallonDor
Well-known member
We should maybe define what a magician is
A Messi, a Neymar, a Ronaldinho, Arsenal's Henry, an Iniesta.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Agreed
Don't take it literally.
When I talk about magicians, you don't have to be Messi or Ronaldinho.
I will make an example using Barca's players from recent years:
Level 0 magic: Arthur, Roberto, Semedo, Gomes = players who are just "there". They will rarely do something out of nowhere which will turn the game around
Level 1 magic: Rakitic, Denis, Rafinha = not world beaters but here and there they can pull a nice dribble, shot or a goal. They don't do it consistently though and usually rarely do it in biggest matches
Level 2 magic: Coutinho, Dembele = guys who can create some magic out of nowhere. But their magic is way weaker than from guys from the top tier. Either they are inconsistent, dumb, moody, not too lethal with scoring etc
Level 3 magic: Messi, Neymar, Ronaldinho = doing magic consistently, almost on every match. When a team struggles, they will take the ball and try to create something out of nowhere and they often succeed.
Even Cr7 is on that level. He will not create magic with dribbles but he'll find space, find himself alone for an easy tap in or for an easy header on the far post (out of nowhere) and he does it consistently.
Now, regarding Coutinho, he is obviously not a tier 3.
But imo, he is a better magician (on paper) than everyone in our team except Depay.
I would rate our team:
Highest tier: Depay
Tier below: Ansu, Cou
Tier below: Dembele, Griezz
Tier below: everyone else
so, in terms of our team who is lacking goalscoring and a creation and shots in the attacking third since our midfielders are sterile and possession-recycling based, Cou is one of guys who can offer something different.
As I have said, Pedri and Frenkie are nice. But they need 2 Depays on wings and a good No9 to thrive.
They will run and keep the ball, while the attacking trio will kill the matches.
But if we have only 1 Depay, we are in danger.
On the other hand, imagine if we sell both Cou and Braithwaite.
Our play would rely on Depay and on sterile Griezz-Pedri-Frenkie.
That's like Pep's Barca.
When you pair Xavi-Iniesta-possession with Messi's magic = you get Pep's Barca winning machine.
When you remove Messi = you get boring, sterile possession-recycling football who lacks a punch in the final third.
When you remove Xavi-Iniesta but keep Messi = you get a team without enough control in midfield and Messi needs to drop deep to create something.
To some extent, it is similar with Pedri-Frenkie and magicians.
Magician attackers need Pedri and Frenkie behind their back.
But Pedri-Frenkie also need at least 2 magicians upfront.
If your remove any of these 2 components = a team will suck.
And now again, my question is: who are magicians in our team, except Depay? (if we sell Cou).
Our only hope is injured kid Fati.
Since there is no way that slow-dropping deep Griezz or Dumbele will be enough for good results.
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Fati_Future_BallonDor
Well-known member
If you speak about liverpool coutinho then yes but so far he didnt arrive here. Need to hope for this season.
He had a real good spell whilst Messi was out for some reason a couple of years ago ..
BBZ8800
Senior Member
I know.
But he likes the same spaces/role as a playmaker Messi.
In the first season, Cou played well when EV was rotating Iniesta and Cou.
They rarely played together and back then there was more room for Cou (even though Messi was on field).
But when all three of Messi, Iniesta and Cou started to play at the edge of a box, our play declined a lot.
That is just one example.
The other one is: last season when we played without Messi in a CL group stages on away games, the team was quite fun, direct, unpredictable and lethal without Messi because players combined well and passed the ball in all directions (instead of always looking for Messi in the final 3rd).
In that sense, Cou never played even 5 matches in a row WITHOUT Messi on a field.
If he'll suck without Messi and Iniesta playing close to his areas, then he is surely done.
This is why I would like to see Coutinho without Messi on a field.
But our financial situation and a fact that he lost a jersey no 14 is quite worrying and I think that he will be the sacrified one, while Griezmann and especially useless Dembele will stay.
Birdy
Senior Member
Dembele and Ansu cannot be put on the same group with Depay, Cou, Griezman, and Messi
simpy because they operate on different spaces.
Demb and Ansu are happy to occupy the wing, and are not play-makers. They are not looking for the through-ball, but rather they intend to take on their man and create something. This is the type of player this team severely lacks atm
The other 4 are all play-makers, and always look to be the provider.
Some suck at it (Griezzy), some are WC at it (Messi) or near that (Depay).
IMO current Barca can afford only 1, and max 2 play-makers in the starting XI.
Koeman was making the mistake of trying to fit 3 (!) of them in the XI the first months of last season.
So you see in a sense Messi's departure created the necessary space there for other play-makers
And the pecking order IMO should be Depay, Cou, Griezzy for the play-making spot
simpy because they operate on different spaces.
Demb and Ansu are happy to occupy the wing, and are not play-makers. They are not looking for the through-ball, but rather they intend to take on their man and create something. This is the type of player this team severely lacks atm
The other 4 are all play-makers, and always look to be the provider.
Some suck at it (Griezzy), some are WC at it (Messi) or near that (Depay).
IMO current Barca can afford only 1, and max 2 play-makers in the starting XI.
Koeman was making the mistake of trying to fit 3 (!) of them in the XI the first months of last season.
So you see in a sense Messi's departure created the necessary space there for other play-makers
And the pecking order IMO should be Depay, Cou, Griezzy for the play-making spot
Coutinho played as a typical winger for Liverpool, on the left side of the pitch. Messi wasn't the issue. No idea how Messi prevented Coutinho from playing like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI6EMUHrF9s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI6EMUHrF9s
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Birdy
Senior Member
Not at all.
He started from the left wing on paper, and always look to come centrally to feed attackers with through-balls, or take one of his good long diagonal shots.
Very similar to what Messi did for years, starting from the right
Coutinho never ever beat his man or roamed parallel to the sideline
Far cry from what a winger does.
Birdy
Senior Member
You haven't wathced much Liverpool of the time.
That's not his typical move. It happened because he had to drag himself too far wide just to reach the long ball
Look at all his goals, and you will see the typical move. Look how centrally he is when he takes the shot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZYm43OJQg
And his assists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLEFVfsR_GQ
Receiving the ball on the left, always cutting diagonally towards the center to provide through-balls and crosses for others or shoot.
Messi-esque move per se from the opposite flank.
Hence the problem of occupying the same spaces, and leaving the wing empty
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Madrid didn t had magicians? Lol. Marcelo, Modric, Benzema, Ronaldo.
JohnN
Senior Member
I get the concept of a hard working team that play as a unit, press high up etc etc... I just don't see Barca as one of those teams, without some standout players. The type of players that got all of us to start watching this club. Ronaldo9, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Romario etc.. That's just the way I see this club.
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