Quique Setien

[Birdy]

Excuse my rushed illustration, but here is what I think is one of our major issues (first is us, second is either city or LFC):


* the arrow is ball creation before the final hit, that is just an estimate.

Everyone is looking for Messi to create or hit.

Until some years ago, i was the biggest advocate of 'Messi play for all' 'Messi FC', etc position.
But by now it's futile to not recognize that Messi is part of the problem as well..
The flip side of the argument 'messi drops deep to do the things other players cannot do' is that Messi WANTS TO drop deep into area that he is ineffective, and he keeps doing that irrespective of whether there are CMs that can very well pick him out with a pass in a more advanced position close to the box.
Notice how close to Busquets he gets some times!
Everyone is looking for Messi to create. True. Do we know if that is happening because the other players do not want to create, or rather because Messi WANTS it to be that way??
It's delusion to calm ourselves with the argument that he gets that far back simply because he does not receive the ball.

See in your first graph how Messi dropping deep from the RW position messes up the structure of the buildup. There are tweaks that can mitigate the effects: for example the Right interior storming to the RW position (which Vidal does sometimes, that's why Setien is playing him), but still if you don't have wider forwards or wingers to be dangerous with balls to run in behind, and with the ability to dribble and shoot (Vidal cannot do that) then it's ineffective.

In general, to compensate Messi's tendency to drop deep, only two solutions are possible:
1) Messi as false-9, like under Pep, to form a diamond with the mid. This can only work without Suarez or a striker, but with TWO wingers to give width who can also dribble and finish off chances. Players like coutinho, suarez, Griezman or midfielders like Roberto, Vidal, who have occasionally found themselves there, are ineffective for that job.
The only two player in our squad atm that can do that are Fati and Dembele (who is injured most of the time)
2)a 4-2-3-1 system with Messi in the hole. That also requires two winger and a striker, with more passing options for Messi.
But, it's vulnerable defensively and it involves no Busquets (or the third midfielder) and less control.

In any case what we have seen under EV and under Setien is trying to compromise Messi's wishes (starting from RW, dropping deep) with the Old Guard priviledge (Suarez still starting), and with ineffective signings (Griezman can only play Messi's position), and it will never work.
Setien is clever, he sees the shortcomings. Can he change them? I doubt. It's unfortunate, and i hate it to say: the players, including Messi, have too much power to impose their wishes against the proper functioning of the whole.

Apart from mere observation, the above fact is confirmed by Messi himself! In his interviews the last couple of years, he has said time and time again how he sees himself as a creator in the mid, and not as a goalscorer or attacker.
Van Gaal's interview last summer (which gave him all kind of shit because he spoke against Messi) is really eye-opening.
We should stop rationalizing and explaining away Messi's own part of responsibility, just because he is Messi.

I agree. Another issue/ obstacle is that we cannot break down the modern defence setup. I do not really know who came up with this style, but Simeone was the first one that I saw using it. The old defence setup was about either chasing the ball or marking players, which was quite easy to exploit by quick passes/players' movements. However, now, managers assign a piece of the field to each player to defend regardless of where the ball is. One way to overcome this setup is by crossing the ball (all types high low from different angles). We, unfortunately, only use one type from only one angle (Alba to Messi). Zidane was successful with his approach by instructing his fullbacks to cross the ball to the point where RMFC barely struggled against AM in the CL. LFC doing the same, it is quite effective.

The deep block is very old strategy. Mourinho did that in 2010, and even before that people were doing it.
Barca, even in the golden days, had trouble with deep block.
Crossing is a way to fight a deep block, but not the best, especially for a team that does not base its game on crosses and does not have good crosseres or headerers of the ball.
Another way, that has worked for Barca in the past, is to have 2 elite creators occypying half-spaces between the center and the flanks, and overloading the box with players. It worked some times with Messi, Iniesta in the past occupying the right and the left half-space, with the full-backs occuping the flanks, and 3-4 of perdo/villa/eto etc being in the box.

 

[snowy]

Until some years ago, i was the biggest advocate of 'Messi play for all' 'Messi FC', etc position.
But by now it's futile to not recognize that Messi is part of the problem as well..
The flip side of the argument 'messi drops deep to do the things other players cannot do' is that Messi WANTS TO drop deep into area that he is ineffective, and he keeps doing that irrespective of whether there are CMs that can very well pick him out with a pass in a more advanced position close to the box.
Notice how close to Busquets he gets some times!
Everyone is looking for Messi to create. True. Do we know if that is happening because the other players do not want to create, or rather because Messi WANTS it to be that way??
It's delusion to calm ourselves with the argument that he gets that far back simply because he does not receive the ball.

See in your first graph how Messi dropping deep from the RW position messes up the structure of the buildup. There are tweaks that can mitigate the effects: for example the Right interior storming to the RW position (which Vidal does sometimes, that's why Setien is playing him), but still if you don't have wider forwards or wingers to be dangerous with balls to run in behind, and with the ability to dribble and shoot (Vidal cannot do that) then it's ineffective.

In general, to compensate Messi's tendency to drop deep, only two solutions are possible:
1) Messi as false-9, like under Pep, to form a diamond with the mid. This can only work without Suarez or a striker, but with TWO wingers to give width who can also dribble and finish off chances. Players like coutinho, suarez, Griezman or midfielders like Roberto, Vidal, who have occasionally found themselves there, are ineffective for that job.
The only two player in our squad atm that can do that are Fati and Dembele (who is injured most of the time)
2)a 4-2-3-1 system with Messi in the hole. That also requires two winger and a striker, with more passing options for Messi.
But, it's vulnerable defensively and it involves no Busquets (or the third midfielder) and less control.

In any case what we have seen under EV and under Setien is trying to compromise Messi's wishes (starting from RW, dropping deep) with the Old Guard priviledge (Suarez still starting), and with ineffective signings (Griezman can only play Messi's position), and it will never work.
Setien is clever, he sees the shortcomings. Can he change them? I doubt. It's unfortunate, and i hate it to say: the players, including Messi, have too much power to impose their wishes against the proper functioning of the whole.

Apart from mere observation, the above fact is confirmed by Messi himself! In his interviews the last couple of years, he has said time and time again how he sees himself as a creator in the mid, and not as a goalscorer or attacker.
Van Gaal's interview last summer (which gave him all kind of shit because he spoke against Messi) is really eye-opening.
We should stop rationalizing and explaining away Messi's own part of responsibility, just because he is Messi.



The deep block is very old strategy. Mourinho did that in 2010, and even before that people were doing it.
Barca, even in the golden days, had trouble with deep block.
Crossing is a way to fight a deep block, but not the best, especially for a team that does not base its game on crosses and does not have good crosseres or headerers of the ball.
Another way, that has worked for Barca in the past, is to have 2 elite creators occypying half-spaces between the center and the flanks, and overloading the box with players. It worked some times with Messi, Iniesta in the past occupying the right and the left half-space, with the full-backs occuping the flanks, and 3-4 of perdo/villa/eto etc being in the box.

Great analysis!

About the tweaks for the 4-3-3 Messi at RW, like you said, Vidal did it successfully a few times. You've also got Bob and Semedo running up and occupying that space. I perso like this aspect of Setien's game but he sure could use more suited players for it. Havertz and Ziyech would be a great fit since they excel at fluid positional switches in their current teams.

We can definitely exploit that empty space on the right more since we often get LEFt overload or opposition just crowding the centre where Leo, Grizz and Suarez play bumper-sticker.

For the False 9 and 4231 scenarios, things could get interesting next year with the arrivals of Pedri and Trincao and who knows Dembouz 2021 Space Odysseus

If we do get lucky and play with faster, versatile players, that Messi dropping deep could churn up some pretty magical moments. Look at neyney at PSG, he also drops deep a lot but the he's got the faster wingers and strikers up top and the fluidity on his NT team also allows him to do it for Brazil.

 

[serghei]

Until some years ago, i was the biggest advocate of 'Messi play for all' 'Messi FC', etc position.
But by now it's futile to not recognize that Messi is part of the problem as well..
The flip side of the argument 'messi drops deep to do the things other players cannot do' is that Messi WANTS TO drop deep into area that he is ineffective, and he keeps doing that irrespective of whether there are CMs that can very well pick him out with a pass in a more advanced position close to the box.
Notice how close to Busquets he gets some times!
Everyone is looking for Messi to create. True. Do we know if that is happening because the other players do not want to create, or rather because Messi WANTS it to be that way??
It's delusion to calm ourselves with the argument that he gets that far back simply because he does not receive the ball.

See in your first graph how Messi dropping deep from the RW position messes up the structure of the buildup. There are tweaks that can mitigate the effects: for example the Right interior storming to the RW position (which Vidal does sometimes, that's why Setien is playing him), but still if you don't have wider forwards or wingers to be dangerous with balls to run in behind, and with the ability to dribble and shoot (Vidal cannot do that) then it's ineffective.

In general, to compensate Messi's tendency to drop deep, only two solutions are possible:
1) Messi as false-9, like under Pep, to form a diamond with the mid. This can only work without Suarez or a striker, but with TWO wingers to give width who can also dribble and finish off chances. Players like coutinho, suarez, Griezman or midfielders like Roberto, Vidal, who have occasionally found themselves there, are ineffective for that job.
The only two player in our squad atm that can do that are Fati and Dembele (who is injured most of the time)
2)a 4-2-3-1 system with Messi in the hole. That also requires two winger and a striker, with more passing options for Messi.
But, it's vulnerable defensively and it involves no Busquets (or the third midfielder) and less control.

In any case what we have seen under EV and under Setien is trying to compromise Messi's wishes (starting from RW, dropping deep) with the Old Guard priviledge (Suarez still starting), and with ineffective signings (Griezman can only play Messi's position), and it will never work.
Setien is clever, he sees the shortcomings. Can he change them? I doubt. It's unfortunate, and i hate it to say: the players, including Messi, have too much power to impose their wishes against the proper functioning of the whole.

Apart from mere observation, the above fact is confirmed by Messi himself! In his interviews the last couple of years, he has said time and time again how he sees himself as a creator in the mid, and not as a goalscorer or attacker.
Van Gaal's interview last summer (which gave him all kind of shit because he spoke against Messi) is really eye-opening.
We should stop rationalizing and explaining away Messi's own part of responsibility, just because he is Messi.



The deep block is very old strategy. Mourinho did that in 2010, and even before that people were doing it.
Barca, even in the golden days, had trouble with deep block.
Crossing is a way to fight a deep block, but not the best, especially for a team that does not base its game on crosses and does not have good crosseres or headerers of the ball.
Another way, that has worked for Barca in the past, is to have 2 elite creators occypying half-spaces between the center and the flanks, and overloading the box with players. It worked some times with Messi, Iniesta in the past occupying the right and the left half-space, with the full-backs occuping the flanks, and 3-4 of perdo/villa/eto etc being in the box.

Solid comment. The low block 4-4-2 position oriented zonal marking is way older than Mourinho. It was the go to defensive setup in the 90s and early 00's with the Italian teams. It's a pretty basic defensive setup where possession is conceded and low pressure is applied on the ball carrier (as to not break the shape and cause holes).

 

[DonAK]

A 4-2-3-1 is probably the best solution going forward, with or without Messi. It should at the very least be one of the setups they can change too.

If you find a high energetic CDM/B2B MF to pair Frenkie de Jong with it can work. Need a new CF and two wingers who can press up front and help by tracking back too. Would actually let us use signings like Trincao in their actual positions instead of trying to peg them at the LW or something.

That?s the reason I?ve wanted to sign Eduardo Camavinga.

Playing this half-assed slow build-up style will get us nowhere.

 

[serghei]

The slow build-up side has nothing to do with the 4-3-3. Most successful team in the world currently play a 4-3-3.

 

[DonAK]

The slow build-up side has nothing to do with the 4-3-3. Most successful team in the world currently play a 4-3-3.

We cannot play a 4-3-3 with Messi. He will never play as a RW which will mean that the shape of the team will be unbalanced.

Barca is the only top European team that plays with no width whatsoever.

 

[serghei]

We cannot play a 4-3-3 with Messi. He will never play as a RW which will mean that the shape of the team will be unbalanced.

Barca is the only top European team that plays with no width whatsoever.

So you want to build a new team around Messi? At this stage?

 

[DonAK]

So you want to build a new team around Messi? At this stage?

I want to build a new team that can work around him. What else do you suggest? Be realistic.

He is not leaving Barcelona before the earliest at the conclusion of the 2022/2023 season.

 

[serghei]

I want to build a new team that can work around him. What else do you suggest? Be realistic.

Basically, you lose a midfielder. Because Messi in the middle in a 3 behind the striker will add nearly nothing defensively. For this you need an absolute monster defensive player to pair him with De Jong. And even then it's kind of light defensively.

Also, Messi drops even more than CAM position, I don't see him waiting there for the double pivot to feed him balls. So it will look more like a 4-3-3 with Messi as midfielder.

So, it's not only a problem that Messi doesn't stay very wide. He doesn't even stay in the last 3rd, he drops to Pirlo positions, almost like a DLP. He thinks he can play in a retreat position and make plays from there, but sadly, when you occupy a deeper position, you need to run off the ball.

 

[DonAK]

Sadly there is no other choice. I dont think its impossible for him to still adjust, but it wont happen with this team. Too old and slow. Perhaps with a new team, a proper sporting project and a manager capable of taking this team forward he could yet learn a few new tricks.

I dont think he has any trust in our midfielders to help him get the ball in advanced positions. Barcelona right now is like Argentina post-Sabella. A broken team.

 

[Latschenkiefer]

Basically, you lose a midfielder. Because Messi in the middle in a 3 behind the striker will add nearly nothing defensively. For this you need an absolute monster defensive player to pair him with De Jong. And even then it's kind of light defensively.

Also, Messi drops even more than CAM position, I don't see him waiting there for the double pivot to feed him balls. So it will look more like a 4-3-3 with Messi as midfielder.

So, it's not only a problem that Messi doesn't stay very wide. He doesn't even stay in the last 3rd, he drops to Pirlo positions, almost like a DLP. He thinks he can play in a retreat position and make plays from there, but sadly, when you occupy a deeper position, you need to run off the ball.

I wouldn't say that. It's true that you loose a midfielder which is worrying but you gain two fullbacks who don't have to stand so high up the pitch all the time.

Messi will start most of his plays at the half way line regardless of the system.

 

[te amo barca]

A 4-2-3-1 is probably the best solution going forward, with or without Messi. It should at the very least be one of the setups they can change too.

If you find a high energetic CDM/B2B MF to pair Frenkie de Jong with it can work. Need a new CF and two wingers who can press up front and help by tracking back too. Would actually let us use signings like Trincao in their actual positions instead of trying to peg them at the LW or something.

That?s the reason I?ve wanted to sign Eduardo Camavinga.

Playing this half-assed slow build-up style will get us nowhere.

4-2-3-1 with Messi as the cam won?t work because Messi is not a midfielder. Messi can?t dictate the tempo, doesn?t know when to slow down the play. The moment he gets the ball, his only objective is to create a dangerous situation by playing a risky ball or dribbling. He does an absurd number of high-risk plays in every game. He does not play nor move like a midfielder but likes to think he?s one.

With Messi at CAM, there will be only 2 CMs. 2 CMs cannot control the middle of the pitch without help. With Messi at CAM, both ?wingers? will have to do a great amount of defending and helping out the midfield. The only ?solution? I see is to use a 4-4-2 like EV did, lol. Lucho tried a 3-4-3 but it didn?t work out. 4-4-2 prompts pretty uninspiring football.

De Jong had energetic midfielders Schone and van den Beek around him in a 4-2-3-1, Ziyech on the right wing who plays like a midfielder and another midfielder Tadic as false 9. At Netherlands he has De Roon and Wijnaldum who can also run all day long. De Jong - BBM - Messi? Ain?t working. Not even Kante will be able to make it function.

 

[serghei]

Best option is to play 4-3-3 with Messi RW and purposely drive more actions to the right. Trying to get him involved. I think if he is engaged more he will stay more there. Drive more actions on the right, and use switches to the left when space opens up more using Messi's left foot.

I think this is what we did brilliantly in 2014-15. We used overloads in the right, meaning we built more actions there with Messi and Alves combining in short spaces, drawing opponents in, and use the left to basically finish actions using Neymar's quickness and his explosiveness.

We need to play in such a way as to bring long term benefits too.

 

[KingLeo10]

Best option is to play 4-3-3 with Messi RW and purposely drive more actions to the right. Trying to get him involved. I think if he is engaged more he will stay more there. Drive more actions on the right, and use switches to the left when space opens up more using Messi's left foot.

I think this is what we did brilliantly in 2014-15. We used overloads in the right, meaning we built more actions there with Messi and Alves combining in short spaces, drawing opponents in, and use the left to basically finish actions using Neymar's quickness and his explosiveness.

We need to play in such a way as to bring long term benefits too.

Messi was in his physical and mental prime in 14-15. Also, the team was one of the strongest (atleast first XI) ever assembled at the club level.

I agree that we can take some lessons from that time but IMO, not much.

The only way to squeeze something out of this Barcelona is to have an actual manager, young, hardworking talent (that means no Messi buddies in Suarez around), and Messi himself playing as an actual forward.

Until then, it's looking grim.

 

[khaled_a_d]

In general, to compensate Messi's tendency to drop deep, only two solutions are possible:
1) Messi as false-9, like under Pep, to form a diamond with the mid. This can only work without Suarez or a striker, but with TWO wingers to give width who can also dribble and finish off chances. Players like coutinho, suarez, Griezman or midfielders like Roberto, Vidal, who have occasionally found themselves there, are ineffective for that job.
The only two player in our squad atm that can do that are Fati and Dembele (who is injured most of the time)
2)a 4-2-3-1 system with Messi in the hole. That also requires two winger and a striker, with more passing options for Messi.
But, it's vulnerable defensively and it involves no Busquets (or the third midfielder) and less control.

Solid comment, may I ask what did LVG said?
Now about the formation:
1)Regarding False 9, I disagree it works with 2 wingers:
Our best false 9 worked with either Henry/Eto moving around him during 2009 in some games, or with Villa & Pedro. It was with a striker who can play on wings + a winger who moves great off the ball.
Same thing when we played with Ronaldinho as false 9 under Rijkaard (something that historically seem to be forgotten) with Giuly & Eto. We played CL final in 2006 with that formation.
I think Fati can one day be that Winger/Striker player.


But the problem with this it doesn't work with parked bus. It can be so sterile without elite midfield. Still worth a try.

2) Regarding 4231, I think we might be talking names, but I think it will never be 4231, but 442. This is the way we played with EV, and one of the main reasons I generally liked him and defended him.
Messi played his whole career as either Second Striker or RW, even false 9 is basically a SS without number 9 in front of him.
Even now he isn't really an AM, he roams freely but loves to attack space between defense and midfield, like a SS.

The different in 442 and 4231 is that in the former you can play different types of midfielders. Players like Roberto/Paulinho or old Iniesta worked well in that set up, helped the midfield a lot.