The numbers are good, but I have no idea how you can so vigorously ignore performances. Do me a favour and rewatch the home clasico this season.
Edit: Dont care about this Valverde/Setien discussion though. Whats the point? Both have been shit.
Quique Setien
- Thread starter FC433
- Start date
The numbers are good, but I have no idea how you can so vigorously ignore performances. Do me a favour and rewatch the home clasico this season.
Edit: Dont care about this Valverde/Setien discussion though. Whats the point? Both have been shit.
Barcilliant
Senior Member
😃 People still going on about Shitverde.
Look he's responsible for two consecutive cl humiliations. He isn't coming back and very few want him back.
We have next season coming up very soon plus the cl too. We NEED a manager with BIG personality and pragmatism Setien was never going to be the man even on an interim basis. Someone like Jupp Heynkes would also be very interesting.
Look he's responsible for two consecutive cl humiliations. He isn't coming back and very few want him back.
We have next season coming up very soon plus the cl too. We NEED a manager with BIG personality and pragmatism Setien was never going to be the man even on an interim basis. Someone like Jupp Heynkes would also be very interesting.
FinBarcelonafan
Well-known member
Not sure what your agenda is.. Are you Valverde defender? Who do you cheer for? It seems like you end up defending whatever everyone else hates.
Valverde is to blame for the garbage we see today. He let the team do whatever during his 2 year tenure.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
My agenda is that you don't get it.
Valverde wasn't shit.
Barca was shit.
The only way to use this team is to play a slow, granny football and to rely on Messi.
If you'll try to play faster, you'll die because players can't run.
If you'll try to play with younger players, you'll die, because they are more or less shit.
So, THE ONLY OPTION was to actually play Eernieball.
Yet, 90% of a forum wrote 1000s insane posts like:
EV is the biggest cancer in the history of Barca.
Our team will fly under a new coach.
Nobody can be worse than EV.
We are only 2-3 signings away from being the best club in the world, lol.
And we were just Arthur-away from not being KOd by Liverpool, lol.
While reality is closer to:
If EV is a coach=it is what it is.
If someone else comes= in the best case scenario, a team will play the same as under EV.
In other, more likely scenarios=a team will be more shit, like it happened after EV.
Look at some replies in the last few posts: CL humiliation this, CL humiliation that.
Lol.
Majority of Barca's CL history is more or less a humiliation.
Before Messi, we managed to win 1 CL in our history with our mighty style of play and with our mighty overly naive phylosophy.
Then Messi came, we turned into greats and fans and media re-wrote history as if we were some historical all time greats who were always the best and dominating the world.
While in reality, we always played eye-pleasing football, but were losing year after year in a truly comical ways, like:
Cruijff losing to Cska Moscow in a round of 16 as a reigning CL champion in 1993, lol.
Or 0:4 defeat against AC Milan in a CL final in the next year.
Or in the next season, when Cruijff barely qualified from group stage (we went through on a goal difference) and lost to Psg in the first KO round, even though a mighty PSG won 1 French title between 1986 and 2012.
After these magnificant results by Cruijff (should I dare to use a word "humiliations" or is it reserved only for EV?), we hired Van Gaal, who was the best coach in Europe and who won a CL with Ajax in 1995.
Yet, at Barca, Van Gaal managed to get KOd in a group stage 2 times in 3 years, lol, with an epic 0:7 aggregate defeat against a mighty Dinamo Kiev as a highlight of his CL career at Barca.
I don't know about you guys, but does these 1:3 and 1:4 away defeats at EVERY SINGLE CL KO away match sound familiar and as a Deja Vu? Since these crappy away displays are the only constant during our last 30 years.
After Cruijff's 3 CL humiliations, we followed with Van Gaal and got humiliated even worse.
And then we hired 3-4 new coaches, who all managed to get KOd in a group stage again, or against Juve and Milan.
Then Rijkaard came and got KOd 4 times in 5 years by British teams: Celtic, Chelsea, Liverpool and Man Utd with playing Xavi-Deco (or Iniesta) midfield.
The only time when we actually managed to do something was when he played anti-Barca way with Edmilson-Van Bommel-Deco.
That's the only time when our away CL record was: Chelsea 2:1 win, Benfica 0:0, Milan 1:0 win, final Arsenal 2:1 win. Zero defeats on away CL matches.
And that's THE REAL HISTORY of Barca before Messi.
Then we had our golden generation with Pep, Messi, Xavi-Iniesta-Busi, when our team was like 150% better than any other opponent and that was the only time in a history when our naive type of football managed to actually win European titles and not getting Kod and humiliated on every single away KO match.
But even then, the magic lasted for only 3 seasons.
Pep started to struggle in 2012.
And Barca soon returned to our "glory ways" from 90s and 00s:
Bayern 0:7 in 2013
Atletico 0:1 in 2014
Atletico 0:2 in 2016
Psg 0:4, Juve 0:3 in 2017
Roma 0:3 in 208
Liverpool 04: in 2019
Insert anyone in 2020
So, the problem is that I don't like this revisionism where some of you make it sound as EV ruined our (otherwise) magnificant club who was rulling the world for 200 years in a row.
Again, for anyone who watched Barca way before Pep, the truth is: we always played eye-pleasing, but extremely naive for quarters, semis and finals.
When you add into maths that we are the biggest spenders in the world and that without Messi, we managed to win only 1 CL ever, anyone without Barca's glasses should raise some question like: is our club really THAT successful (when you remove Messi) and is our style really as good as hyped by fans and media since Pep's era.
And now, let's go to our forum and these posts like: CL humiliation this, CL humiliation that, EV had to go.
Lol.
Again: our whole history (without Messi) is one huge CL humiliation.
And if we won't win a CL this season, that will be 9 years with Messi with only 1 CL title won, lol.
Imagine having the best player in a history of this sport and managing to losing CL titles season after season.
Do you still think that our style is THAT good?
Well, you surely do know my opinion about it.
But again, imo, people who were against EV and whoa re still mentioning those 2 CL years as humiliations=are extremely spoiled by Pep's era.
In the next 5 years, we probably won't get nowhere close to EV's results, nor even to his football.
And as someone else mentioned, today we are spoiled with trophies and people whine about ugly playing style.
Wait for 4-5 years of RM's domination where Real will have 4-5 La Ligas and 1-2 CLs and we'll have 0 La Ligas and 0 Cls.
We will see then whether fans will still whine about coaches who will manage to win La Ligas, even without beautiful football.
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FinBarcelonafan
Well-known member
So what is the solution to this? Sign midfield like Liverpool? You are saying we should not play Barca way. You don't think Valverde made any mistakes during his time with Barca? We are supposed to learn from these embarrassments, instead we try the same crap. There needs to be some change, new style, new beginning. Barca needs to adapt to modern football, even Pep has adjusted. Valverde ball will never win anything for Barca, especially this old team.
Btw if Valverde was so good, why no top team wants to sign him? Because choked in CL.. his team was mentally weak. It's on him.
I agree our roster is full of flaws though and the only way to improve is to get rid of some of the old amigos. They are killing us.
Vilarrubi
New member
The post you replied to was talking about this season, that?s why it made no sense you replying what you did.
George_Costanza
Active member
You can't compare this season with 2017? The team was declining each season, and the same starters aged.
Valverde won 2 trophies the first season, we played average football. The second season he won 1 trophy and we played below average football, going by this trend and seeing how we started this season, he would've ended up with zero trophies. He should've got fired after Liverpool loss or if he had any self-respect he would have resigned last summer. Doing that we could have a better season.
Valverde won 2 trophies the first season, we played average football. The second season he won 1 trophy and we played below average football, going by this trend and seeing how we started this season, he would've ended up with zero trophies. He should've got fired after Liverpool loss or if he had any self-respect he would have resigned last summer. Doing that we could have a better season.
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The argument that the squad is not good enough for better football is fair enough. But using that in favour of Valverde is kind of insane.
He had 5(!) transfer windows to make substantial changes. He didnt veto any of our big transfers, who were obvious misfits. Hes either weak, complicit or incompetent. Pick your posion.
He had 5(!) transfer windows to make substantial changes. He didnt veto any of our big transfers, who were obvious misfits. Hes either weak, complicit or incompetent. Pick your posion.
khaled_a_d
Senior Member
This is the job of SD more than the manager.
EV requested many transfers, and it was declined. One prime example was asking for LB in summer 2018 and was told to use freakin Miranda.
Again, this is a part of the core of the problem.
Board hired the coach, but they want him to win with the squad they put.
And then, he had to deal with Roberto/Abidal/Segura in matter of 2 years. Each had his own ideas.
Weak it is?
I dont think there a strict seperation though. I am pretty sure the coach gives his input, there were plenty of meetings between him, Abidal/SD, Bartomeu etc pp.
Birdy
Senior Member
1) The fact alone that you equate Pep's Barca playing style with other era's Barca playing style means one thing:
It's rather You who DOESN't get it!
Passing game can be performed in many different ways, and 'eye-pleasing' is a broad and dubious category (and by the way it does not even apply to many of the Barca teams of the past).
In order to support EV you introduce unsubstantiated categories and claims
2) Your argument that Messi alone is responsible for the UCLs is just wrong as I have pointed out many times...
Why then Messi, after Pep left, could not deliver more than 1 UCL in 8 years (and that one with Neymar and Suarez in their peak)? Even in 18/19 where one can rightfully claim that he delivered the best individual campaign in the history of the competition?
Why the same thing happens with Argentina NT?
Do better with your arguments...
3) Defeat or Elimination does NOT mean humiliation.
You subreptiously make it sound as if every European elimination is also a humiliation.
Van Gaal's Barca getting knocked out to the best Valencia of its history is not humiliation. It's a defeat, and an elimination.
Losing to Atleti in '14 and '16 was a sour elimination, not a humiliation.
Try count the times you think there was a humiliation before EV. Let's see how many you can find.
But what qualifies more than anything for a humiliation, is giving away 3 goal advantage in a second-leg tie of a knock-out.
Rome and Anfield...
That's undeniably humiliation.
4) On revisionism and revisionist re-writing of history:
i) Before Cruyff took over in 1990 Barca was not in the European football map, simply put.
After the failed attempts in the late 50s, Barca only memorable European participations in 30-years time were reaching the European Cup semi-finals in 1975 (eliminated to Leeds) and the lost final to Steaua in 86 (which by the way would have never happened had it not been for the English club ban).
Never reaching finals, not even semis, not even quarters.
Barca were not in the list of the top European clubs, contrary to RM despite them not winning it for 30 yrs
ii) Cruyff and his football revolution managed to put Barca on the map again, simple as that.
Preparing the ground with two Cup Winners Cup finals (one won) in 89 and 91, and then one trophy (92) and one lost final (94) in the UCL.
After that Barca were on the map again.
iii) And the following 12 years after Cruyff, before Pep took over, Barca were constantly on the map.
Maybe they were not serial winners, but were among those that had decent chances to win it every year.
Three semis (00, 02, 08), one trophy (06) in UCL.
But who was a serial winner really that period apart from RM golden era (98-02) and AC Milan?
Was Man UTD? two trophies (99, 08) and three semis (97, 02, 07)
Was Bayern? one trophy (01), one final (99), and two semis (95, 00)
Let's do the same for all top clubs between 96 and 08 and we will see comparable numbers with Barca with the only two exceptions highlighted above.
PS: By the way, the UCL groups back then were staggeringly different and more difficult. Only the first from the group was going through, and the second only under conditions. 98/99 under Van Gaal the group was with Bayern and UTD, eventual finalists
iv) And then Pep took over, and took the whole thing to a new level.
Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Eto, Henry, Toure were already there when he took over. He revolutionized football and was unlucky not to win 4/4 UCLs
And we can agree that this era brought the most European success.
v) After '12 that Pep left, but Messi Xavi Iniesta and co stayed, Barca went back to the era before Pep: always on the map, but not serial winners:
One trophy (15), no final, two semis (12, 19)
Is Barca shit from 2012 to 2020? Compared to Pep's 08-12 maybe...
Compared to post-Cryuff and until Pep? Nope, probably the same...
Compared to before Cryuff? Nope, they are better...
So, let's define revisionism:
Maybe revisionism is not properly differentiating between Pep's era and Messi's era,
or lumping Barca before Cryuff (non-existent magnitude in Europe) together with Barca after Cryuff?
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khaled_a_d
Senior Member
Nope, the whole we need a "strong coach to push his well on board" thing is weird.
The sporting director is the boss of the coach, not the other way around. When Pep was told to deal with Eto because he is going nowhere, he had to deal with him and play him.
Coaches get power over SD in rare situation, and it is usually when they have a sort of insane success. Like Pep did later, or SAF with Manu, or Wenger at some point with Arsenal.
Sure he had his input, but we don't know what is the result of those meetings. We know some friction was clear to the public and Abidal overruled him plenty of times.
Also, coach job isn't to scout, they suck at it (Pep with Ibra/Cesc/Sanchez/Chygrynskiy are examples of this) and they have to veto/approve deals based on profile they need.
If he was told that Coutinho/Dembele are exactly the profile he wants/need then it isn't really his fault either. Even Klopp talked how the players he wanted was verified by scouting department that they met what he need for the team.
Griezmann is a one I put blame on him, since he played against him plenty of times and seen him enough in person to have more input.
That is why I always say sport project that starts from top is more important, without it you set a coach for either mediocrity or failure.
Not saying EV was a world beater, but he came when the club was a mess. Stabilized the team and won few trophies with the quality he had despite team being imbalanced and have several weakness.
Was he a guy to lead a new project from the bench? No. But we never had one in 1st place.
He should have been fired/let go last summer. And we are suffering because of the disagreements within the club. Those who wanted him out couldn't wait to push him after the season, fired him eventually with no one in mind to replace him and get Setien before booking his ticket to Egypt to coach Pyramids FC.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Ok.
I called our history:
1) humiliation
2) Pep's years
3) humiliation
You call it:
1) we are on the map
2) pep
3) we are on the map
Btw, my point is that people are changing history, majority of them.
Since we weren't successful pre Rijkaard.
And even then, we had only 1 truly good year, and even then Messi has helped us a lot against Mou's Chelsea.
Further, since Barca was always one of the biggest spenders, then I don't find our results preMessi too impressive.
I mean, preMessi:
We were the biggest spenders.
Yet, the clubs who were spending like us, like RM or Milan, won more CLs.
And clubs who were spending less like Bayern, Juve, Man Utd, were equal or better than us.
About EV's humiliations, yes, he is the only one who managed to lose 3:0 and 4:0 in the 2nd leg.
But also, he is the only one who managed to win 4:1 and 3:0 in first matches.
In 2014 against AM; we played 1:1 at Camp Nou and in 2016, we won 2:1 only after we scored 2 goals against 10 men (we were losing 0:1 at 11 vs 11).
So, someone could argue that in 2014 and 2016 we weren't humiliated in 2nd legs with 3:0 only because we were so shit that we couldn't even win by 2-3 goals at home, so our opponents didn't need 3:0 wins but only 1:0 wins.
And I don't like these comparisons: we have more titles or finals than other European giants.
In the last 10-15 years:
Italy had a bankruptcy and Calciopoli.
Milan bankrupted, Juve was relegated and almost dismantled.
Roma and Lazio bankrupted.
In Germany: only Bayern is as big as us, yet they didn't have Messi and they spend 3-4 times less than us.
In France: Psg became rich only a few years ago. Other clubs are clowns.
So, not comparable.
In Spain, only Barca and Real are super rich.
We have a guaranteed CL place forever.
In England, they have too many big and rich clubs like Man Utd, City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Tottenham.
A club in England doesn't get a guaranteed CL place over and over.
While Barca missed only 1 CL season from 1996 till today (in 2004).
So, we are richer than anyone, have a guaranteed CL spot forever and we had Messi.
So, who is comparable with Barca?
Only RM in terms of money spent over 30 years.
Yet, they won 7 titles, even without Messi.
We won 5 CLs with all the money, Messi and La Masia luck.
Even La Liga dominance is mostly on Messi.
English teams weren't spending as much as we did, except in the last few years.
In 90s, they had bans and they were in huge problems.
So, it is quite stupid comparing Barca with majority of other clubs over 30 years.
It's like Man Utd vs Middlesbrough and saying: Man Utd won more. Their strategy is better. No shit.
But when you compare Man Utd with equals like Barca, Real or Bayern, they are not as impressive anymore.
No
It works both ways.
You seem to only be learning from EV's mistakes.
Yet, you haven't learn anything from our failures from 1993 to 2007.
Also, you didn't realize the pattern of our failures from 2012 to 2020, regardless of EV.
Name one CL campaign when we were truly dominant after 2011 except 2015.
Let's have some fun, look at this:
2013:
Milan 2:0
Psg 2:2
Bayern 4:0
2014:
City 0:2
AM 1:0
2015:
City 1:2
Psg 1:3
Bayern 3:2
2016:
Arsenal 0:2
Atletico 2:0
2017:
Psg 4:0
Juve 3:0
2018:
Chelsea 1:1
Roma 3:0
2019:
Lyon 0:0
Man Utd 0:1
Liverpool 4:0
2020:
Napoli 1:1
So, our team (without EV's results and without Lucho's one-season wonder) has 10 away matches in 2013, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2020.
We have 6 defeats, 2 draws, 2 wins.
If you add 2012 under Pep: Bayer 1:3, Milan 0:0, Chelsea 1:0, that is:
7 defeats, 3 draws, 3 wins.
So, my point is: our team is a crap since 2012 in Europe (except for 12 Months under Lucho).
And since always, Barca is the weakest (Big) European team when it comes to away matches.
And when I read about these "CL humiliations" under EV, I get an impression as if we were dominating the world before him, lol.
Yet, look at our results. 9 seasons with Messi for 1 CL title.
12 Months before EV, even Lucho managed to concede 7 goals over 180 minutes against Psg and Juventus.
But Lucho was lucky that he played 2nd legs at home.
Imagine how those matches would look like if he would have played the first match at home, especially Psg's tie.
Maybe we would have lost 6:1 and 0:5 or similar.
So, I don't agree that EV has ruined this team.
This team historically plays this way, except on some rare occasions (Pep) or a golden year here and there.
And a pattern and our free fall is quite clear since 2012 onwards.
Yes, EV didn't help either.
But even today, iirc, you mentioned that EV is guilty for our physical state, lol.
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