Real Madrid (old thread)

[Poor_Sunyol]

Arbeloa said a racist comment to Keita actually which is what kicked it all off.

 

[Raed]

this is the problem inherent with combining Cristiano and Mourinho.

Cristiano has won everything. he and Kaka are not Galacticos like the previous lot. the previous Galactico regime was smarter (or luckier) in its signings. only Beckham had already won the CL when he signed for the club. for Figo, Zidane, Ronaldo and Owen it was still on the to-do list and this ensured they had a level of hunger and a willingness to accept certain pragmatisms should they be asked to (they weren't, but I bet they'd have been willing).

so yeah, Cristiano has won everything. and frankly he did it playing a ruthless war machine of a team. there were many goals but little fantasy involved when United lifted the CL in '08. particularly troubling to Cristiano was the phenomenally chickenshit approach adopted against Barcelona in the semi-finals. where Cristiano was left to toil up-front with the two fairly talented players flanking him reduced to being defensive wingers (whoa, deja vu!)

so anyway, he's already done the pragmatic thing to win a CL and dominate a league. I don't think simply winning the big games gives him much joy anymore - he didn't seem that happy when he scored the winner in the Copa - I think he wants what he signed up for: fantasy football. the kinda thing he grew up watching with Figo, Zidane, Ronaldo, etc. the kinda thing that would make people stand up and applaud like they applaud Barça. the kinda thing that would give him a great chance to beat Messi to the Ballon d'Or again.

and I can sorta see his point. why spend all that money (Real's bench cost more than Barça's Starting XI) and sign all those big name players only to play like that? is simply winning really that important? is it really enough? what's the point of winning if you play like that? if you don't participate and create beautiful football (in whatever form)? for fucks sake the man is managing Real Madrid!

I think the name of club and its sheer size is actually holding the club back. Perez has lifted the club beyond its sporting capability, in fact beyond any logical sporting development. There was a time when Real Madrid fans boasted about the name, but look at yourself, the club has risen so high so much so that you, as a cule, have been sucked into this hype machine (as with everyone else including me).

This is not about Ronaldo and Mourinho, this is about a team that is on paper unbelievably talented, and in fact has pushed beyond their limit if you think about it logically, but the amount of resources available will always make every achievement a failure. The irony in that is that the people who want Madrid to do well are Cules, and Madrid's short comings have come at the hands of Barcelona, the best team in the world.

The team along with Mourinho has not had the chance to even work out any deficiencies as the winning formula had to maintained until the wheels came right off. Barcelona were racking mad points, and Madrid had to catch up. The bench never got a chance nor did the players in the first team to refine their game. It was the same route, over and over again. A lot of is said to be ugly, but in retrospect it wasn't. Mourinho played very good football but this is his first season and with new players. Which brings me to my next two points: Maturity and Wavelength.

Tactics, money, and talent aside you have to look at the age of the players and the experience. Ozil is still 23, he is doing Iniesta's job two-three years earlier and is suffering from the over exhaustion and is suffering from the pressure. Marcelo has come through a lot, and I mean a lot, but he has been at the club for some time. Di Maria on the other hand has no shame and has no heart, so he has to show it when he scores a goal. However, he has been dependent on so much so that he had to rely on his incredibly natural skill and trickry to pull through. These two players are on one page. You have the more mature players like Casillas, Carvalho and Xabi. they have maintained the team's spirits and added maturity to the team. Some guidance, a little bit of Mourinho on the pitch. These guys are on one page. Then you have Ronaldo who is super competitive and is does not back down. He is on a page on his own. Mourinho is between a rock and a hard place. One hour, he is forming the team. The next hour he is competing for all titles. He, is on another page. Then you have the immature players like Benzema who didn't take responsibility until very late. Then you have players who are always at the center of controversy, Arbeloa, Pepe, Lass and Albiol.

During the summer when all the nerves have calmed down, I hope Mourinho does a comprehensive study without any justification or any grudges, start new and have everyone on the same length. During the season, I appreciate all that he does for the team and all the shit he stirs because he really has given the team a reason to believe, at his own expense. He defends the team through thick and thin which is what we need. I just hope he develops his managerial abilities to be able to understand the flow and dynamics of the game not just the energy of it.

 

[Beast]

With all the respect to your critical ability (seriously), i do not want your opinion on Capello, i was just asking what was the official statement/reason by Real Madrid FC, when they decided to part with him despite winning Laliga..


As for the rest :

"Championship gives u no recognition beyond your borders , it's a common practice " ---> this is prestige
"no CL you are just a local hero end of story u can't be claim any best in anything except your own league which half of it is formed of teams who can't go past the group stages in Europe" -----> No one claimed that winning national league makes you best in Europe..

Shalke proved again yesterday why the format is not at all representative of the best...

Don't you think it was the contrary ? Schalke game proved it's a representation of the best ? United are the better team and second favorite and they came out winners , same was as did Barca last night ?

Regarding Capello , u wish things were as black and white in our club but it never was /never is the case ..
we had a fight between Calderon (wanted Schuster from the first day during the elections ) and Mijatovic (sporting director and wanted the man who coached him before Capello and got his way during the elections ) , Calderon was living in Perez shadows and wanted both to beat Perez own Galactico team and he believed Schuster will be the man for that..
Old cule's here who came from the old Barca forum would remember quite well our reaction and the Madridista reactions when Capello was dismissed both on fans polls in the Madrid news , in the final game vs Mallorca and on the forum pages .. it's was a very unpopular decision

@Alex.. 3 games from a total of 50 + games prove you were dead wrong actually

 

[Birdy]

Don't you think it was the contrary ? Schalke game proved it's a representation of the best ? United are the better team and second favorite and they came out winners , same was as did Barca last night ?

Shalke only proved that they did not deserved to be there... Arsenal, tottenham, shaktar, Chelsea were all better and deserved to be there more.. If it was a league they would be below them in the ranking.. Just got lucky to pick shitty Leonardo's Inter in the draw..

Regarding Capello , u wish things were as black and white in our club but it never was /never is the case ..
we had a fight between Calderon (wanted Schuster from the first day during the elections ) and Mijatovic (sporting director and wanted the man who coached him before Capello and got his way during the elections ) , Calderon was living in Perez shadows and wanted both to beat Perez own Galactico team and he believed Schuster will be the man for that..
Old cule's here who came from the old Barca forum would remember quite well our reaction and the Madridista reactions when Capello was dismissed both on fans polls in the Madrid news , in the final game vs Mallorca and on the forum pages .. it's was a very unpopular decision

Well, you know inside stuff better, but what i remember is the declaration that "Cappelo did not play the football our fans wnat to see and Real traditionally plays" ....

Jose will and must stay , by all accounts second in the league a surprise Copa win and semi-final CL is exactly where we are ATM .. and it's a very good level
No one will miss Pellegrini at all , we would probably by dumbed by both Lyon & Seville if he was in charge.. thanks but no thanks
It's not a failure , failure is to be where u are last year and the year before it.. if you are moving forward it' means he is doing a correct thing.. for his first season Jose did quite well and i'm personally pleased especially with the CL semi-final spot

Well, that would have been accurate if it was Last years MAdrid.. But this year Pellegrini's MAdrid would have been even better..
So, i have a hunch that you would have eliminated both Sevilla and Atletico in the cup, walk through in the CL by outplaying Lyon and tottenham (it would have been a fantastic contest) and (important!) you would have been 1-3 points behind in the league..
So, it all cames down to Barca.. you would have probably lost the cup and eliminated in the semi's.. You want twp defeats in Laliga? ok, two defeats there..
But you would have played miles better and more attractive football in every game (not only home vs crap)...

 

[dalitis8]

You cannot take marginal differences from one year to the next and be treating them like fixed entities. The fact that Madrid are 8points behind in the league, whilst last year it was only 2, is to a grea extent accidental and has little to do with any manager. There was no necessity behind it. Lots of games could have been different for Madrid, as well as for Barca.

Furthermore, the CL, is not an accurate measure either. Madrid could have easily beaten Lyon last season as well (stand up mister Higuain) but they got unlucky, this season they were much more fortunate against both Lyon and Spurs (2 good, but admittedly inferior teams)

What one should be looking at, is not merely dry results (that in football can be accidental sometimes, especially in the short run) but overall level of play...something which extremely difficult to gauge. In that respect, I feel that Madrid were 5 to 10% better this season than the previous one (I know that this sounds quite arbitrary, but it's my general feeling) but this was not down to Mourinho so much, but to the additions of Di Maria, Ozil, Carvalho and Khedira...

Mourinho has not added very much to the team, if anything... I think he made them more boring, though...

 

[Beast]

Shalke only proved that they did not deserved to be there... Arsenal, tottenham, shaktar, Chelsea were all better and deserved to be there more.. If it was a league they would be below them in the ranking.. Just got lucky to pick shitty Leonardo's Inter in the draw..

Draw play a part , same way draw will play a part in the league if your tough games are right after a UEFA Int. game or in between CL ties like we have now .. or playing your toughest games early when you are not ready yet /top shape or later in the league when the league is not settled yet but you are in top form
You cannot say Schalke didn't deserve to be there they beat 3rd best team in Spain and beat the Holders who are second in Serie A convincingly home and away , just Cause United is so strong doesn't mean they didn't deserve to be there

Well, you know inside stuff better, but what i remember is the declaration that "Cappelo did not play the football our fans wnat to see and Real traditionally plays" ....

And i also remember writing an open letter on the old forum directed to Calderon and the board asking them to keep Capello ..
However Calderon being attacked by Perez even though he was one of the old board members under Perez made him so obsessed of repeating the Galactico era (which led to public confrontation with Milan and United for kaka & CR ) and he made so many mistakes that ended up with him stepping down in one of the biggest scandal's in our history
But i can tell you a big majority of Madridistas wanted Capello to stay after the epic way we won the league with and breaking Barca's Dinho /Messi
it was a clear wrong decision and a formal justification from Calderon on our website doesn't change that fact

Well, that would have been accurate if it was Last years MAdrid.. But this year Pellegrini's MAdrid would have been even better..
So, i have a hunch that you would have eliminated both Sevilla and Atletico in the cup, walk through in the CL by outplaying Lyon and tottenham (it would have been a fantastic contest) and (important!) you would have been 1-3 points behind in the league..
So, it all cames down to Barca.. you would have probably lost the cup and eliminated in the semi's.. You want twp defeats in Laliga? ok, two defeats there..
But you would have played miles better and more attractive football in every game (not only home vs crap)...

Don't know how good is your memory but Pellegrini failed in all the games that mattered .. he was what u exactly described in your last line of your post
And now we would have failed in all those games .. he had a fit Kaka , CR & Higuain and still failed vs Lyon
Real was good home & away this season for most of the games unlike Manuel we were very consistent and if u go back to Cule's post a year ago in this thread u will see them accuse Pellegrini of playing counter attacking speed football as well

 

[Birdy]

What one should be looking at, is not merely dry results (that in football can be accidental sometimes, especially in the short run) but overall level of play...something which extremely difficult to gauge. In that respect, I feel that Madrid were 5 to 10% better this season than the previous one (I know that this sounds quite arbitrary, but it's my general feeling) but this was not down to Mourinho so much, but to the additions of Di Maria, Ozil, Carvalho and Khedira...

well, i agree.. lol..
thats why overall Pellegrini' s side apart from the results failure, was a better IMO side than Mou's side.. Better in terms of football played, not efficiency..
The thing with Laliga is that there are so many inferior teams that when you play dominant football, you are destined to win the game...
that's why pellegrini came close to win this..

 

[Beast]

You cannot take marginal differences from one year to the next and be treating them like fixed entities. The fact that Madrid are 8points behind in the league, whilst last year it was only 2, is to a grea extent accidental and has little to do with any manager. There was no necessity behind it. Lots of games could have been different for Madrid, as well as for Barca.

Furthermore, the CL, is not an accurate measure either. Madrid could have easily beaten Lyon last season as well (stand up mister Higuain) but they got unlucky, this season they were much more fortunate against both Lyon and Spurs (2 good, but admittedly inferior teams)

What one should be looking at, is not merely dry results (that in football can be accidental sometimes, especially in the short run) but overall level of play...something which extremely difficult to gauge. In that respect, I feel that Madrid were 5 to 10% better this season than the previous one (I know that this sounds quite arbitrary, but it's my general feeling) but this was not down to Mourinho so much, but to the additions of Di Maria, Ozil, Carvalho and Khedira...

Mourinho has not added very much to the team, if anything... I think he made them more boring, though...

Yeah cause it's not hard to focus on la liga when you are out of the cup in November and from the CL in early March...unlike now when u had 3 trophies to play for in the end of April
Or did u forget that ? cause you are looking @ dry results..
i look @ progress .. won a trophy CDR, made great progress in the CL and still second place in la liga... yeppy ya yeah so it's 8 points instead of 2 wow... lets forget the first 2 and focus on the 4 points ..
as i said .. Pellegrini and on this board was accused of being counter attacking speed attack team ..
It's no good if u beat Sporting Gijon 7-0 and fail to beat AC Milan @ home .. but lose to them , lose to Lyon and Alco ...
Pellegrini is way overrated by cule's basing it on one single game we lost @ Camp Nou

 

[AnfieldEd]

Pellegrini couldn't win the big games. Thus he was sacked. Nuff said.

 

[dalitis8]

Yeah cause it's not hard to focus on la liga when you are out of the cup in November and from the CL in early March...unlike now when u had 3 trophies to play for in the end of April
Or did u forget that ? cause you are looking @ dry results..
i look @ progress .. won a trophy CDR, made great progress in the CL and still second place in la liga... yeppy ya yeah so it's 8 points instead of 2 wow... lets forget the first 2 and focus on the 4 points ..
as i said .. Pellegrini and on this board was accused of being counter attacking speed attack team ..
It's no good if u beat Sporting Gijon 7-0 and fail to beat AC Milan @ home .. but lose to them , lose to Lyon and Alco ...
Pellegrini is way overrated by cule's basing it on one single game we lost @ Camp Nou

But you are bashing Pelegrini on the basis of the missed chances by Higuain..Madrid could have made progress in the CL last year as well, if it wasn't for the Argentine's wastefulness (surely you can recollect that)

I concede that Madrid are improved this season overall, but I am not sure that that is down to Mourinho and not the additions of key players to the squad (Khedira, Ozil Maria and Carvalho)

 

[Birdy]

Draw play a part , same way draw will play a part in the league if your tough games are right after a UEFA Int. game or in between CL ties like we have now .. or playing your toughest games early when you are not ready yet /top shape or later in the league when the league is not settled yet but you are in top form

Well, this is the same for every team though in the league.. All teams are not ready in the beggining and might lose points not only in tough games, but in theoretically easy ones too.. And also the last two-three months you know it is the photo-finish of it and you give your best, playing more games..
But the main difference is that you are going to play United (for example) in the league home and away(even if it is early) whether you like it or not, but in a cup you can simply bypass that with a good draw..
It is not fair, thats why in early stages of this sport they noticed that and turned all national contests into leagues, keeping the cup as something different but less valuable..

You cannot say Schalke didn't deserve to be there they beat 3rd best team in Spain and beat the Holders who are second in Serie A convincingly home and away , just Cause United is so strong doesn't mean they didn't deserve to be there

But they would still have lost to all the teams i mentioned in a champions league league, so they would not by no means end in the 4rth place of the league and would not, by no means again, claim to be among top 4 in europe..

Don't know how good is your memory but Pellegrini failed in all the games that mattered .. he was what u exactly described in your last line of your post
And now we would have failed in all those games .. he had a fit Kaka , CR & Higuain and still failed vs Lyon
Real was good home & away this season for most of the games unlike Manuel we were very consistent and if u go back to Cule's post a year ago in this thread u will see them accuse Pellegrini of playing counter attacking speed football as well

You dont know if he would have failed in this season's games.. i doubt that..
He started something, to build a team as he had formulated in his mind.. He was not given the time to do so..

 

[Myrmecophile]

So what did Arbeloa actually do (if anything)?

I was under the impression he was a decent, boring guy.

 

[Beast]

But you are bashing Pelegrini on the basis of the missed chances by Higuain..Madrid could have made progress in the CL last year as well, if it wasn't for the Argentine's wastefulness (surely you can recollect that)

I concede that Madrid are improved this season overall, but I am not sure that that is down to Mourinho and not the additions of key players to the squad (Khedira, Ozil Maria and Carvalho)

Nope 180 minutes not Higuain miss.. another 180 minutes vs Milan , another 180 minutes vs Alco , another 180 minutes vs Barca...
He just doesn't have the ability for top games.. he doesn't have it , some managers cannot function under pressure , like Pellegrini like Ranieri ...
He had Raul and Benzema on the bench a fit CR and Kaka... it's not acceptable that every do or die game he comes short... he is not made for such jobs sadly

Well, this is the same for every team though in the league.. All teams are not ready in the beggining and might lose points not only in tough games, but in theoretically easy ones too.. And also the last two-three months you know it is the photo-finish of it and you give your best, playing more games..
But the main difference is that you are going to play United (for example) in the league home and away(even if it is early) whether you like it or not, but in a cup you can simply bypass that with a good draw..
It is not fair, thats why in early stages of this sport they noticed that and turned all national contests into leagues, keeping the cup as something different but less valuable..


But they would still have lost to all the teams i mentioned in a champions league league, so they would not by no means end in the 4rth place of the league and would not, by no means again, claim to be among top 4 in europe..




You dont know if he would have failed in this season's games.. i doubt that..
He started something, to build a team as he had formulated in his mind.. He was not given the time to do so..

.. eventually u will meet the top teams to reach the final.. it's not like the draw will take u in some other competition it never happen like this.. if u consider the level of Valencia and Inter Schalke did quite well to be where they are.. as for the league i'll quote our German resident El Tren who said there as talk in the paper that they bottled it to get Magath sacked ..

@ Pellegrini it's not about the building but the leadership.. any manager in his shoes will surely build a team but when u have such a high profile players and see u do nothing when it mattered it takes away from their believe in your ability .. and why he was not given time by Capello and Jose did ? u have to show promise to be given a second shot.. but all he showed was doubt in his managerial ability to lead this team to trophy... he is a good manager but on Ranieri level not a club looking to win a trophy

 

[woobie]

This may be a ridiculously naive way of looking at things, but a part of me had to feel sorry for some of the Madrid players last night. The harsh, cynical behavior on the pitch and the almost complete absence of attacking play at home against a team with a very makeshift backline was just depressing. Guys like Ozil, Higgers, etc deserve better (the Pepes and Arbeloas of the world not so much but I think they're douchebags anyway).

 

[Birdy]

Well , about Pellegrini you can say many things, but what you call leadership is something very unclear..
To me it is all about tactics.. The ancient law of football says that it is much much easier to destroy than to create.. Building a team in a way to negate an opponent is the easiest thing to do for a (good and clever) manager (regardless of the result), but building a side that will play in order to impose their style over the opponent's is very hard..
Pellegrini just payed the price of being in the latter group.. In two- three years time his Real would have been able to do so, and then he would be a good 'leader', but he was forced to exit and stop his work...
Why Zidane and Casillas and others said he should stay with us? because they saw the work he was doing...

.. eventually u will meet the top teams to reach the final.. it's not like the draw will take u in some other competition it never happen like this.. if u consider the level of Valencia and Inter Schalke did quite well to be where they are.. as for the league i'll quote our German resident El Tren who said there as talk in the paper that they bottled it to get Magath sacked ..

No...
Eventually you meet the one than the paper inside the ball reveals.. there are huge potential differences between the sides..
You could meet this year in the 16 Arsenal and Copenhgagen also... form the group winners Bayern/shalke or Real/United..
Same dynamic? of course not..
And the level of Valencia and Inter (especially) is pretty poor compared to other possible opponents..

Its obvious that you cut short if you are lucky.. Like lyon last year, like shalke this one, like Arsenal two before, like, like .....