Thiago Translantara

[jamrock]

he maybe looking at it simplisticly but you are just nite picking to make a point, off course your going to come down after a almost perfect game in the five nil, what should he have do win every game like that against the most expensive team every assembled and with a top manager, but at the end of the day the facts are the facts and not just some stat.

under pep we always put in a shift against the best teams, even when Madrid where at the best they could only beat us once, i find it hard to believe when they have been as poor as they have been this season they would have beaten a pep coached barca, i would bet my life they wouldn't .

pep just has Jose in his pocket, even when Madrid game good they struggled to beat us, pep's record against Jose speaks for it self, inter and Madrid its like 3 wins in 15 are something like that

so stop using the 5-0 as some gold standard that if he did beat every time meant Jose was figuring him out, yes he was he is a great manage but not to the extent certain people are making it.

you can't play a team as much as we played Madrid a walk it every time, but we came up with a way to win under pep, not so under tito

 

[footyfan]

Did we get steadily worse under Pep or not against Madrid? My time frame is from the 5-0 until the 1-2 Camp Nou loss. A simple yes or no will do.

No it didn't. After the 5-0, all the games were pretty much equal with Barca just the slightly better team.

With Tito, there is no question as to which is the better team, we hardly create any chances whatsoever. Besides, you've completely ignored my last para which I will quote again:

Throughout Pep's last season, bar a few games where we lost points, we played football that was still fantastic to watch. While this season, I have not enjoyed Barcelona like in previous seasons. It has nothing to do with match results but everything to do with our play. Barca are still good to watch but not anywhere near the same extent as before.

My intention is not to make this Pep vs Tito, but Barca 2011/12 vs Barca 2012/13, for the few who've said that we've been a better team this year.

 

[spark]

Absolute carnage. The players didnt even really celebrate scraping through to the final. They know when they are outplayed. Getting one over Mou was probably nice but its no surprise this was followed up by Mou's first ever victory at Camp Nou.

 

[footyfan]

It's my fault, but I used the words Pep and Tito just to relate Pep's last season and the current season respectively. Not literally Pep vs Tito.

 

[jamrock]

Did we get steadily worse under Pep or not against Madrid? My time frame is from the 5-0 (before that they were a joke squad, Gago, Guti, grandpa Raul, Drenthe lol) until the 1-2 Camp Nou loss. A simple yes or no will do.

so one minute a poster is being too simplistic and the next you are breaking it down as simple way possible to make a point, ignoring all the variables, so pep should have won by 55 goals are more every time?

simple question did pep not win 3 games against Madrid when Madrid were having there best season in ages and did tito not lose 3 times, when Madrid were having their worst season in a long time.

yes or no

 

[DonAndres]

Really the comparison doesn't do much justice. 11-12 saw Madrid on a roll, all of their players in great form. This season they were a circus yet still were able to buck up and beat us so easily without much challenge back on our part.

 

[footyfan]

We were shut down by Milan even under Pep as well. We didn't score in San Siro and only won in Camp Nou thanks to 2 penalties.

And we should've had 2 penalties in the first leg as well. + We did not get shut down, no way - we still created chances. 2011/12 Milan was also much better than last season's Milan. We played great in the first 2 group stage games as well.

Milan return leg this season was one of the few bright spots of last season but the first leg we actually created 0 chances.

 

[Ursegor]

Absolute carnage. The players didnt even really celebrate scraping through to the final. They know when they are outplayed. Getting one over Mou was probably nice but its no surprise this was followed up by Mou's first ever victory at Camp Nou.

People have short memories. I'd say that this game in pure footballing terms was even worse than the 1-3 loss that Tito experienced. Madrid were running at us at will. Abidal was getting raped by Özil all night long on the wing. Özil hit the bar, Higuain pretty much missed a 1 on 1 and Ramos got a goal disallowed. That could have been easily 5 goals for Real Madrid. But, yeah, we "imposed our style".

 

[footyfan]

That's such a simplistic way of looking at it. If we ignore the 5-0 result for a second when Madrid were still building their project and their players hadn't gelled yet then you'll realize that the results against Madrid got steadily worse already under Pep. After the 5-0, off the top of my head:

La Liga Clasico in the Bernabeu: We couldn't break them down and drew 1-1 despite Madrid playing with 10 men (Albiol red card).
Copa del Rey Clasico: First time Madrid pressed us high up the pitch and we didn't cope too well. Madrid should have taken the lead in the first half (Pepe hitting the post). Lost the final 0-1 at the end.
CL semi-final first leg: We created nothing until Pepe got sent off and Messi dribbled past 16 players.
CL semi-final second leg: We actually went behind 0-1 but a Mascherano dive prevented Madrid from taking the lead. We drew 1-1 at the end.
Supercopa Clasicos: Messi with 3 goals and 2 assists over 2 legs. From this point on it wasn't a team effort anymore and the game wasn't won by Pep's tactical acumen. Messi made the difference.
Copa del Rey second leg in Pep's last season: Extremely lucky to survive it with a 2-2 (+ disallowed Ramos goal) at home and we all know it. Higuain could (SHOULD) have scored after 20 seconds already. A deflected cross coupled with an Alves wonder strike somehow took us through to the finals.
Pep's last Clasico: Mourinho wins for the first time in Camp Nou.

Now that I'm actually reading your post, I notice you are only talking about incidents that suit your argument. I really really suggest you watch "CL semi second leg" again. Not only did we not go behind (we went ahead from a fantastic Iniesta pass) but we created so many chances and were by far the better team in the game.

 

[Ursegor]

And we should've had 2 penalties in the first leg as well. + We did not get shut down, no way - we still created chances. 2011/12 Milan was also much better than last season's Milan. We played great in the first 2 group stage games as well.

Milan return leg this season was one of the few bright spots of last season but the first leg we actually created 0 chances.

Under Pep we played Milan 4 times and didn't win a single game without penalties, even with Thiago Silva injured in 3 out of 4 legs. We somehow scrapped through because "Messi did 70 % of the work" according to Nesta.

 

[darthvader7888]

Absolute carnage. The players didnt even really celebrate scraping through to the final. They know when they are outplayed. Getting one over Mou was probably nice but its no surprise this was followed up by Mou's first ever victory at Camp Nou.

You do realize that our clasicos this season have been worse, right? We should have lost by at least 5 goals in the super cup, lost 3-1 in the CDR at Camp Nou (and the 1 was a consolation), got outplayed by their freaking bench facepalm: ), etc. And this was against a FAR weaker Madrid side than that of Pep's last season.

We've only done well in 2 big games this season. We've been far worse than we were in Pep's last season in that regard.

 

[footyfan]

People have short memories. I'd say that this game in pure footballing terms was even worse than the 1-3 loss that Tito experienced. Madrid were running at us at will. Abidal was getting raped by Özil all night long on the wing. Özil hit the bar, Higuain pretty much missed a 1 on 1 and Ramos got a goal disallowed. That could have been easily 5 goals for Real Madrid. But, yeah, we "imposed our style".

It wasn't all bad. We should've had a penalty (foul by Pepe on Alexis) that's not shown on the video. But yes, we didn't really deserve to draw that game.

 

[footyfan]

Under Pep we played Milan 4 times and didn't win a single game without penalties, even with Thiago Silva injured in 3 out of 4 legs. We somehow scrapped through because "Messi did 70 % of the work" according to Nesta.

But our penalties mostly arose from stone-wall scoring chances. You should watch the Milan matches again to notice the difference from this season.

 

[Ursegor]

It wasn't all bad. We should've had a penalty (foul by Pepe on Alexis) that's not shown on the video. But yes, we didn't really deserve to draw that game.

Look, the point here really isn't "was Barca in 11 / 12 better than Barca of 12 / 13". The point is: Was there already a downward trajectory of performances under Pep, did teams in Europe slowly start to figure us out and if so did it just continue under Tito or did Tito take a flawless, hungry, non-declining and healthy squad and made it unexpectedly worse? For me it is the former.

Also:

We are moaning about Sanchez not delivering. Who bought him? Pep.
We are moaning about Fabregas taking game time away from Thiago and not fitting into the system. Who bought him? Pep.
We are moaning about having no defenders and Mascherano playing as a CB. Who started this tradition? Pep.
We are moaning about no goalscoring alternatives to Messi. Who sold all the strikers? Pep.

lol

 

[footyfan]

Look, the point here really isn't "was Barca in 11 / 12 better than Barca of 12 / 13". The point is: Was there already a downward trajectory of performances under Pep, did teams in Europe slowly start to figure us out and if so did it just continue under Tito or did Tito take a flawless, hungry, non-declining and healthy squad and made it unexpectedly worse? For me it is the former.

Clearly, we were arguing different things then. I go with the former too, but like I said my intention was not to make it Tito vs Pep.