Thiago Translantara

[Gohan]

Let me make this clear. Even if we had kept Thiago, he wouldn't be how he is now. Pep has alot to do with Thiago's development. Yes, Thiago makes mistakes but he has the guts to take risks and he has a thrive of going forward.

Anyways, even if we kept him. I don't think he would be the player he is now. A coach is sometimes the main reason for a players development.

 

[DonAndres]

He made errors in his time here but it's obviously not a huge indicator for a young player. Every transfer has a push and pull factor, his was no different. Pep was the pull factor that brought him to Bayern specifically, but it didn't push him out of the club.

What did push him out was Tito. Thiago's playing time was erratic and often irrelevant. He AT LEAST deserved the consideration of the manager to play in a few meaningless league games after we had already won the title to keep the buyout from being as low as it was, it would've showed some sort of belief and desire for him to stay. It's myth to say that he had some sort of bratty attitude and wanted more than he deserved while our other players were firing it up on a regular basis. Cesc was having his 2nd half season syndrome, Xavi was overplayed to the point of fatigue and painkillers (which, yes is a big deal) and showed no impressive form of his own. Iniesta was our only consistently awesome midfielder last season.

Thiago himself was 5th in our MOTM thread (3rd in the chart dividing votes by playing time) which is a fairly consensus opinion, check the archives for yourself. Those who said he showed nothing to deserve more playing time last season are fooling themselves. He had brilliant matches vs Athletic, Espanyol, Zaragoza, Deportivo, Getafe, and a few other decent ones. He warranted trust and was fully capable of handling himself apart from some bad moments. All the hate and mention of isolated errors came in the summer when the transfer speculation started.

In the end he didn't even leave because of ONE season of less than desirable playing time partly due to injury. This wasn't a case of him "wanting to be undisputed starter without earning it blah blah blah", he just wanted more faith and effort from the coach to give him a role of importance rather than cast him off as "reserve player" or "4th best". He left because there was little effort from the coach to incorporate or trust him, and that itself is damn obvious. Tito's words: "I can't promise him anymore playing time" and nothing after that to try and get him to stay. He said that despite Xavi continuing to age, despite Thiago being a massive prospect for us, and despite the fact that he did play well. He couldn't even give him enough minutes to keep him at the club ffs! That's horrible management. Pep's words: "Thiago is the only one I want". It doesn't take a Nobel Prize winner to tell which manager had more faith in him, and look how well that's payed off. Thiago's talent was nurtured and now he's shining for Bayern and even with the NT vs. Italy. He's not undisputed starter for Bayern (other than what he's EARNED) and he's constantly saying how happy he is there. This is in a midfield which is more competitive and has much more depth than ours, goes to show how much of an impact coaching had to do in his move.

It was very short-sighted to restrict his playing time off of a pea-brained seniority system that leaves no competition for starting places and just hands it to the veterans. Calling him a reserve shows how the distribution of games was based solely off of reputation and peak quality, not taking into account factors such as fatigue, age, form, player trajectory, etc. which is what any professional management should be doing. After that, it was taken a step further in arrogance with the whole "Can't promise him anything about the future" as if that's a sign of bending to his will. He had earned more trust for the next season, he wasn't just asking for it without working which is what the high and mighty "no one is bigger than the club" mantra would suggest.

Thiago isn't exactly a rooted loyalist but it's a joke to expect that of anyone in modern football (Xavi himself was near a Milan move at one point). He had ambition and a desire to grow, but with Tito and the coaching staff neglecting him so clearly I don't blame him for wanting to find his way somewhere else. It's a shame because Tata would eventually take over and he would've given him trust but that's a matter of hindsight.

 

[footyfan]

What is with people correlating "the club believing in player" with the number of starts or appearances? Man-management is so much more than that, shows people here wouldn't really make good managers.

The fact that the club didn't even bother to take the appropriate measures (i.e play him in games) to raise his buyout to 90 million shows how much they cared about Thiago.

Edit: So this post was essentially a tl;dr for DonAndres' wall of text.

 

[Galning]

Good thing no one said or even implied that.

Good thing Darko never said anything about the video either.

What is with people correlating "the club believing in player" with the number of starts or appearances? Man-management is so much more than that, shows people here wouldn't really make good managers.

The fact that the club didn't even bother to take the appropriate measures (i.e play him in games) to raise his buyout to 90 million shows how much they cared about Thiago.

:beer2:

 

[DonAndres]

Edit: So this post was essentially a tl;dr for DonAndres' wall of text.

pretty much, well put.

 

[The Observer]

Good thing Darko never said anything about the video either.

Of course he didn't. I did.

What is your point exactly?

What is with people correlating "the club believing in player" with the number of starts or appearances? Man-management is so much more than that, shows people here wouldn't really make good managers.

The fact that the club didn't even bother to take the appropriate measures (i.e play him in games) to raise his buyout to 90 million shows how much they cared about Thiago.

Edit: So this post was essentially a tl;dr for DonAndres' wall of text.

Thiago himself talked about "being a bench warmer" according to BeIn which implies he left because he felt he didn't get enough minutes. Actually he literally left because he didn't play a certain amount of minutes.

What is it with you contradicting yourself within 2 paragraphs though? On the one hand you say "the club believing in players" has nothing to do with number of appearances and there is more to it. Then you claim Barca didn't care about Thiago because they didn't give him the needed number of appearances to make him stay.

I'm surprised the club allowed itself to be held to ransom like that in the first place. A club like Barca should never allow players to demand contractual playing time. The coach must decide his lineups based on performances, not contracts. If Rafinha demands the same next season he should be immediately sold.

 

[footyfan]

Thiago himself talked about "being a bench warmer" according to BeIn which implies he left because he felt he didn't get enough minutes. Actually he literally left because he didn't play a certain amount of minutes.

What is it with you contradicting yourself within 2 paragraphs though? On the one hand you say "the club believing in players" has nothing to do with number of appearances and there is more to it. Then you claim Barca didn't care about Thiago because they didn't give him the needed number of appearances to make him stay.

I'm surprised the club allowed itself to be held to ransom like that in the first place. A club like Barca should never allow players to demand contractual playing time. The coach must decide his lineups based on performances, not contracts. If Rafinha demands the same next season he should be immediately sold.

Your post falsely hinges on a few words to distort my stance on Thiago. I never said man management has "nothing" to do with number of apps, I said there's a lot more to man management than just number of apps. Of course, his discontent over limited minutes has played a role in the transfer.

But the key is that Thiago felt that his situation was not going to change in the future, that's when you read "just so I would no longer be warming the bench anymore" and "the club didn't believe in me" and say 2+2=4

At the end of the season, Thiago's number of starts under Pep will not be wildly different to his starts in 2012/13. What will be the difference though is the confidence the Pep has in him when compared to Tito ("Barca is not a charity" "I don't care about contracts") not to mention the other thousands of cues he would've got from Tito in training that we don't know anything about.

Barcelona did not even care how much money they got for Thiago as they let his buyout drop by 80%, something that could've been corrected by the simple action of playing him in dead rubber games after the title was won. You know in which situations people/owners behave like that? When they don't give a shit.

And re: your last para: There is such a thing as long term capacity planning, that happens even with the smallest of teams in an office environment, let alone a sporting project where so much $$$ is at stake. Not as black and white as -> the best player must play. Shows the quality of the management. It would be OK if Barca were Madrid and were willing to buy the best, but they aren't. I would be very happy if the result of the Thiago BS is that Barca get Kroos or Gundogan, that is a net positive for the club. What are the chances though?

 

[Flavia]

Club allowing itself to be held ramson?

What a hugely flawed logic you have. That clause on the contract was to be benefitial to Barça. A management with more vision would take advantage of it, play the extra minutes left and increase his buyout clause, in order to get more money if other clubs showed interest or the player wanted to leave. Nothing to benefit the player there, but the club.

Not playing Thiago was benefitial to him and bayern, as bayern got him for much less than it would be if his clause was 80m.

 

[The Observer]

There are some misunderstandings there. The "Barca is not a charity" comment was directed at dos Santos, not Thiago. I can't bother to look up the exact context right now, I believe when journalists asked about dos Santos' future specifically. But it had nothing to do with Thiago, that's for sure.

His contract also didn't drop. It was the other way around. It was € 25M all the time and would only rise when he played a certain number of minutes.

So what evil things did Tito do to little Thiago who only wanted a bit of love and nothing more? After 4 months out Tito immediately started him away to Getafe while Messi was on the bench (which is a risk and shows that Tito trusted him). Right at the beginning of the season way before Madrid had given up on the league. People were actually surprised that Tito threw him into that game as a starter so quickly. Started the game after against Granada as well. Here is a hilarious post from September 2012:

Starts tonight again, I always love when I see his name on the team sheet, obviously Tito trusts him to start ahead of Xavi, glad Villa starts also

And then after the game:

Subpar tonight, no swag

He was okay. Lots of misplaced passes.

Worst 45 mins i've seen of him.

Some of his passes were hapless.

Really very sub-par performance from him but the fact that he's still very young and just came from an injury so I will give him a pass on this one.

Then in the next game against Sevilla he got injured again for 6 weeks. His comeback was on the 25th November. Tito had his cancer relapse in December. He basically came back when things started to go ape shit on and off the pitch. With Roura in charge they sticked with the "safe" option (Xavi-Cesc-Iniesta) most of the time. It was not exactly the right moment to groom a youngster and some of his performances didn't help one bit. The entire group didn't even train tactics without a coach. They were coaching themselves. The more it all went to shit, the more they sticked with what they had. But once Tito came back Thiago's minutes have risen again. This is a fact. He played more minutes than Xavi in the second half of the season in La Liga and as much as Iniesta. He even started a Clasico in the Bernabeu. The bridges started to burn towards the end when in most likelihood Thiago and his entourage moaned and brought the contract to light so Tito got pissed and said he doesn't care about contracts and he prefers players who want to be here, like Fabregas.

I'm not even sure why I'm explaining this. Everyone is free to believe what he wants. Little Thiago who specifically demanded a minute-based contract in the first place and said he wants to be successful in football, not in Barcelona, left because he didn't feel the love of Tito. Well, okay. Proceed.

Club allowing itself to be held ramson?

What a hugely flawed logic you have. That clause on the contract was to be benefitial to Barça. A management with more vision would take advantage of it, play the extra minutes left and increase his buyout clause, in order to get more money if other clubs showed interest or the player wanted to leave. Nothing to benefit the player there, but the club.

Not playing Thiago was benefitial to him and bayern, as bayern got him for much less than it would be if his clause was 80m.

My logic is perfectly fine. Nothing about that contract was benefitial for Barca. Either he plays 60 % of the minutes or he can go for a low fee is not what I call benefitial for Barca. It's called holding someone for ransom. Next we'll have Messi, Iniesta, Pique, Fabregas, Neymar also all demanding 85 % playing time or otherwise they can leave to a new club for € 20M. Why should Thiago be the only one who gets this privilege of chosing a new club when he doesn't get the playing time he wants?

 

[Flavia]

My logic is perfectly fine. Nothing about that contract was benefitial for Barca. Either he plays 60 % of the minutes or he can go for a low fee is not what I call benefitial for Barca. It's called holding someone for ransom. Next we'll have Messi, Iniesta, Pique, Fabregas, Neymar also all demanding 85 % playing time or otherwise they can leave to a new club for € 20M. Why should Thiago be the only one who gets this privilege of chosing a new club when he doesn't get the playing time he wants?

Your logic is completely flawed. Thiago was still a prospect when he signed that contract. So that was in order to make him more expensive, in case he played that amount of minutes. Which wasn't much, as he was 10-ish minutes from acheiving that required amount. There was no one being held ramson. Just a stupid short sighted management, who could've raised his fee from 18 to 80m by a matter of minutes. Minutes there were available in dead rubber games after the liga was already won.

A buyout in the benefit of the player is Tello's. Only 10m, something he asked for, in case he wants an easy way out. But keep on distorting things if your mind is set on it.

 

[The Observer]

You don't make sense. Tello's and Thiago's contracts are exactly the same concept except for the numbers. How is Thiago's benefitial for the club but Tello's benefitial for Tello himself in case he wants an "easy way out"?

Barcelona winger Cristian Tello has signed a contract extension until 2018, with the new deal including a €25 million buy-out clause which could rise to €35 million depending on appearances.

Thiago's was exactly the same concept except rising from € 18M to € 80M. If Tello's contract is "for an easy way out" so was Thiago's.

 

[Flavia]

You don't make sense. Tello's and Thiago's contracts are exactly the same concept except for the numbers. How is Thiago's benefitial for the club but Tello's benefitial for Tello himself in case he wants an "easy way out"?



Thiago's was exactly the same concept except rising from € 18M to € 80M. If Tello's contract is "for an easy way out" so was Thiago's.

My mistake on these numbers. I thought Tello's buyout was only 10m, as I posted above.

I think that was his previous buyout. The one you posted now is to benefit the club to get more money. They probably learned with the way thiago was lost.

 

[DonAndres]

His contract also didn't drop. It was the other way around. It was € 25M all the time and would only rise when he played a certain number of minutes.

Weak semantics at best. It's a clever little wordplay from the board to try and spin the concept as if it's any different than what was previously thought. Essentially a glorified version of "glass half full/empty". It doesn't change the fact that it could've been avoided by playing him after winning the title, but no I guess we just had to have that 100 point total am I right?

So what evil things did Tito do to little Thiago who only wanted a bit of love and nothing more? After 4 months out Tito immediately started him away to Getafe while Messi was on the bench (which is a risk and shows that Tito trusted him). Right at the beginning of the season way before Madrid had given up on the league. People were actually surprised that Tito threw him into that game as a starter so quickly. Started the game after against Granada as well.

We walked through the league that season (especially at the beginning), there was little "risk" in playing Thiago against getafe in what was a 4-1 game with their only goal coming from Mascherano . Not to mention this was right after a trip with NT's for the senior players AND Iniesta was injured. Fabregas and Xavi still played, he wasn't trusted over anyone other than Messi who was being rested due to travel. Besides, it's not ONLY not playing in select games that drove Thiago out. I doubt playing one game in a CL knockout stages would've been make or break for his decision to stay. It was that Tito was as passive and indifferent of a coach as they come. He put little to no faith in Thiago, didn't give a shit enough about it to convince him to stay.

The whole "ransom" concept is weird as well. Is the smart move of a club to deny a young player some more faith and assurance and literally leave the door open for him to go in the ego-flexing mentality of 'player can't push us around'. Thiago shouldn't have had to ask for more trust or playing time for the next season anyway, it's the logical route to go by. Yet instead the club had to be so shortsighted as to say that a developing youngster is nothing more than a "reserve player"?

Then in the next game against Sevilla he got injured again for 6 weeks. His comeback was on the 25th November. Tito had his cancer relapse in December. He basically came back when things started to go ape shit on and off the pitch. With Roura in charge they sticked with the "safe" option (Xavi-Cesc-Iniesta) most of the time. It was not exactly the right moment to groom a youngster and some of his performances didn't help one bit. The entire group didn't even train tactics without a coach. They were coaching themselves. The more it all went to shit, the more they sticked with what they had. But once Tito came back Thiago's minutes have risen again. This is a fact. He played more minutes than Xavi in the second half of the season in La Liga and as much as Iniesta. He even started a Clasico in the Bernabeu. The bridges started to burn towards the end when in most likelihood Thiago and his entourage moaned and brought the contract to light so Tito got pissed and said he doesn't care about contracts and he prefers players who want to be here, like Fabregas.

I'm not even sure why I'm explaining this. Everyone is free to believe what he wants. Little Thiago who specifically demanded a minute-based contract in the first place and said he wants to be successful in football, not in Barcelona, left because he didn't feel the love of Tito. Well, okay. Proceed.

There's some sense here. Tito's relapse really did turn the entire team's situation to shit. What you failed to mention is that Xavi himself was injured for over a month in the 2nd half of the season (obviously due to overplaying) and Thiago only played vs Madrid because Xavi was unfit and in pain. Overall he was still playing when we had a massive cushion in the league, but that's beside the point.

It's completely true that the circumstances of last season restricted Thiago's playing time whether it be his injury or Tito's relapse, but that is aside from the truth that Tito did neglect Thiago or simply disliked him. Thiago himself didn't force the move just because of the playing time from 12/13, but because he got nothing but hostility and the cold shoulder from the management when he started talks about improving his situation for the next season. They didn't even bother tying him there as previously stated. That was the push factor, and eventually the lure of Pep is what took him to Bayern.

My logic is perfectly fine. Nothing about that contract was benefitial for Barca. Either he plays 60 % of the minutes or he can go for a low fee is not what I call benefitial for Barca. It's called holding someone for ransom. Next we'll have Messi, Iniesta, Pique, Fabregas, Neymar also all demanding 85 % playing time or otherwise they can leave to a new club for € 20M. Why should Thiago be the only one who gets this privilege of chosing a new club when he doesn't get the playing time he wants?

How is it a privilege? Your entire logic is surrounded on using Thiago's contract as a reflection of his attitude as a player. Contracts are negotiated by agents, which in Thiago's case happens to be his asshole of a father. He never once acted in a way that suggested he "wanted to be undisputed starter straight away" or "holding the club for ransom". It's an agent trying to get the best deal for his client, which on some level will detract from the club. Neymar's has caused us enough problems, Leo himself is on massive wages, etc. Those are completely different examples but all show the same idea, contracts are often slimy work and don't indicate anything about the player as an individual. Is Neymar associated with criminal actions? Is Leo a greedy bastard? No. Thiago's contract just happened to be his ticket out when his situation at Barca looked like it was bad and was going to be bad for the foreseeable future.

 

[fcbdna]

Once again proves he has a loyalty value of -1.

 

[darthvader7888]

He made errors in his time here but it's obviously not a huge indicator for a young player. Every transfer has a push and pull factor, his was no different. Pep was the pull factor that brought him to Bayern specifically, but it didn't push him out of the club.

What did push him out was Tito. Thiago's playing time was erratic and often irrelevant. He AT LEAST deserved the consideration of the manager to play in a few meaningless league games after we had already won the title to keep the buyout from being as low as it was, it would've showed some sort of belief and desire for him to stay. It's myth to say that he had some sort of bratty attitude and wanted more than he deserved while our other players were firing it up on a regular basis. Cesc was having his 2nd half season syndrome, Xavi was overplayed to the point of fatigue and painkillers (which, yes is a big deal) and showed no impressive form of his own. Iniesta was our only consistently awesome midfielder last season.

Thiago himself was 5th in our MOTM thread (3rd in the chart dividing votes by playing time) which is a fairly consensus opinion, check the archives for yourself. Those who said he showed nothing to deserve more playing time last season are fooling themselves. He had brilliant matches vs Athletic, Espanyol, Zaragoza, Deportivo, Getafe, and a few other decent ones. He warranted trust and was fully capable of handling himself apart from some bad moments. All the hate and mention of isolated errors came in the summer when the transfer speculation started.

In the end he didn't even leave because of ONE season of less than desirable playing time partly due to injury. This wasn't a case of him "wanting to be undisputed starter without earning it blah blah blah", he just wanted more faith and effort from the coach to give him a role of importance rather than cast him off as "reserve player" or "4th best". He left because there was little effort from the coach to incorporate or trust him, and that itself is damn obvious. Tito's words: "I can't promise him anymore playing time" and nothing after that to try and get him to stay. He said that despite Xavi continuing to age, despite Thiago being a massive prospect for us, and despite the fact that he did play well. He couldn't even give him enough minutes to keep him at the club ffs! That's horrible management. Pep's words: "Thiago is the only one I want". It doesn't take a Nobel Prize winner to tell which manager had more faith in him, and look how well that's payed off. Thiago's talent was nurtured and now he's shining for Bayern and even with the NT vs. Italy. He's not undisputed starter for Bayern (other than what he's EARNED) and he's constantly saying how happy he is there. This is in a midfield which is more competitive and has much more depth than ours, goes to show how much of an impact coaching had to do in his move.

It was very short-sighted to restrict his playing time off of a pea-brained seniority system that leaves no competition for starting places and just hands it to the veterans. Calling him a reserve shows how the distribution of games was based solely off of reputation and peak quality, not taking into account factors such as fatigue, age, form, player trajectory, etc. which is what any professional management should be doing. After that, it was taken a step further in arrogance with the whole "Can't promise him anything about the future" as if that's a sign of bending to his will. He had earned more trust for the next season, he wasn't just asking for it without working which is what the high and mighty "no one is bigger than the club" mantra would suggest.

Thiago isn't exactly a rooted loyalist but it's a joke to expect that of anyone in modern football (Xavi himself was near a Milan move at one point). He had ambition and a desire to grow, but with Tito and the coaching staff neglecting him so clearly I don't blame him for wanting to find his way somewhere else. It's a shame because Tata would eventually take over and he would've given him trust but that's a matter of hindsight.