I
instinct
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Apparently he had a relapse and will miss the WC...
Thiago Translantara
- Thread starter IraqiCulé
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darthvader7888
Banned
Can't catch a break 
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MessiDinho10
New member
Man fuck this
Paganinisrvnge
New member
Extremely injury prone. Wow.
Semi-Neutral
Sir Alupp Heynrguson
They knew 
DonAndres
Wild Man of Borneo
Poor guy . His injuries are the only obstacle to his talent, something has to be done to minimize them. They're the only thing holding him back from an amazing career trajectory.
Well back in 2010, that system worked. Now, it's a VERY limiting decision.
Factor in that playing current Xavi (for Barca or Spain), you cut the velocity of your offensive transition by about 1/2. That massively facilitates any team's efforts to defend deep. Putting in an immobile, brute-forced machine like Alonso makes it glacial. Spain holds the record for the WC champion with the least amount of goals in 2010; now imagine that already fairly slow play with Xavi's decline to pull it down further. I know that Xavi 'gets more freedom' to attack with the NT but that is shown inconsistently and much less so in recent times.
That system is not worth the sacrifices that come with it (including not playing Iniesta in midfield). I understand VDB wants to have a more pragmatic defense by adding cover in midfield, but someone like Koke fits in a technical team better than Alonso who's meant to be a shielding midfielder in a counterattacking team. Koke is much more mobile, covers more ground, and pretty much matches Alonso's defensive stats albeit in a different role. Most of all, attacking fluidity isn't lost and there's more creativity as well.
. His injuries are the only obstacle to his talent, something has to be done to minimize them. They're the only thing holding him back from an amazing career trajectory.Well back in 2010, that system worked. Now, it's a VERY limiting decision.
Factor in that playing current Xavi (for Barca or Spain), you cut the velocity of your offensive transition by about 1/2. That massively facilitates any team's efforts to defend deep. Putting in an immobile, brute-forced machine like Alonso makes it glacial. Spain holds the record for the WC champion with the least amount of goals in 2010; now imagine that already fairly slow play with Xavi's decline to pull it down further. I know that Xavi 'gets more freedom' to attack with the NT but that is shown inconsistently and much less so in recent times.
That system is not worth the sacrifices that come with it (including not playing Iniesta in midfield). I understand VDB wants to have a more pragmatic defense by adding cover in midfield, but someone like Koke fits in a technical team better than Alonso who's meant to be a shielding midfielder in a counterattacking team. Koke is much more mobile, covers more ground, and pretty much matches Alonso's defensive stats albeit in a different role. Most of all, attacking fluidity isn't lost and there's more creativity as well.
Ursegor
World Champion
No way. Alonso is Spain's best deep-lying playmaker alongside Busquets. Spain looked wank without him in the Confeds except against Uruguay and Tahiti, defensively fragile even against Nigeria. Likewise Real Madrid during his injury. How Koke would do in that position is pure speculation. Mobility doesn't make up for Alonso's immense experience in high profile games in that position. Koke mostly plays as a wide midfielder in a completely different setup.
Barca fans want Alonso out of the team since 2010. I don't know why. Without that double pivot they ain't winning anything. Especially now that Xavi needs more defensive cover I'd say they need Alonso more than ever before.
Barca fans want Alonso out of the team since 2010. I don't know why. Without that double pivot they ain't winning anything. Especially now that Xavi needs more defensive cover I'd say they need Alonso more than ever before.
CatalinR10
Senior Member
poor guy
DonAndres
Wild Man of Borneo
Spain looked wank in the Confeds Cup cause they had no defensive system. The Xaviniesta duo in midfield didn't have any workrate, no attackers besides Pedro did either, coupled with having trash Arbeloa and an overly attack minded Alba in the backline itself.
Having Alonso in midfield just masked the dysfunctions that shouldn't have been there in the first place. Slowing down the game with Alonso and the double pivot was the pseudo-defensive system that Spain used. It worked, but hindered attacking play and will do that moreso with Xavi's decline.
Those dysfunctions can be minimized. Azpilicueta at RB strengthens the right flank much more and Alba has improved his defensive game quite a bit this season. Koke in particular does offer a lot of defensive cover in midfield. He's young but you can't say he's inexperienced after having assisted the winner in a CDR final, scoring the winner in a CL semifinal, and yet to play in both a CL and League final. He's utilized as a wide midfielder in Simeone's 4-4-2 but anyone who's regularly seen him knows that he's fully capable of slotting into a CM position (his entire style is that of a central player, not a wide one). Having an industrial midfielder like him covering for Xavi's lack of defensive workrate is fully functional, it's just yet to be done in practice. Workrate and engine is just as capable of aiding in defense as having a brute like Alonso. If the rest of the team can minimize defensive problems and maximize workrate, it's not absolutely necessary to decelerate the play so much with a double pivot to disguise issues.
Ursegor
World Champion
Koke is a completely different, much more advanced player than Alonso. It's like asking Xavi to replace Busquets. Unless you mean to play 4-3-3 with Busquets, Iniesta and Koke in midfield à la Barca 2.0. But even then I disagree. They are never going to keep as many clean sheets with that as they do with Busquets, Alonso and Xavi. In international football it's not conceding first, scoring second. Unlike club football.
Koke is not a buildup player anyway. He can assist and without the ball he has energy. But he can't do this:
Why divert from a winning formula for no reason?
Costa
Iniesta Xavi Silva
Alonso Busquets
Alba Ramos Pique Azpi
Casillas
It's literally perfect. Summer in Brazil. Their opponents will have a horendous time chasing the ball with that lineup. Bring on Pedro and Navas around the 70 minute mark and it adds insult to injury.
DonAndres
Wild Man of Borneo
I'm not saying that Koke should replace Alonso flat out, I agree that they are two completely different players. I'm just saying that a reasonable evolution would be to have Koke partner Xavi in midfield: energy and defensive cover + controlled buildup, good complements. International football is much more pragmatic so keeping clean sheets is very important, but there's a point at which it becomes hindrance.
Xavi playing so conservatively these days and Alonso losing mobility even more means that Spain's midfield would have a lethargic tempo and not much creativity.
The formula has to evolve, times are changing. Playing such possession-dominant football worked when there was tempo and attacking livelihood (as seen in the video), not anymore though. Koke is a buildup player and has all the qualities for it (Positional intelligence, passing intelligence, movement, technical ability). He's shown it in various Atletico games but for a more direct translation, in the u21 Euros with Spain alongside Isco and Thiago.
------Casillas
Azpi-Ramos-Pique-Alba
------Busquets
----Xavi----Koke
Pedro--Costa---Iniesta
You don't need to simply aim to hoard possession and slow down play with Alonso and the double pivot if other facets of defensive play work out. Costa and Pedro provide the workrate up top, Koke and Busquets in midfield, and the defense is infinitely improved with Azpi and an enhanced Alba. Sure it doesn't pragmatically suffocate opposition teams as well as the double pivot system does, but it adds to the overall play greatly in attack (which is important, no matter what) and does give a solid defensive system. You've got Xavi pulling the strings, Koke providing engine, Busquets providing backbone, Iniesta's creativity, Costa's strength, and Pedro's effective goalscoring for Spain. Not to mention that the Costa/Koke duo works VERY well together in Atletico and would have good chemistry in the NT as well.
It's probably too risky to experiment with in the WC itself, but as a transition into the next generation it's the most effective use of the squad's talent. We no longer need to disguise defensive problems with the better players we now have, so why not build on that to make a better attacking force too?
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