England
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malvolio
Senior Member
Top managers don't coach at NT level. They stay in club football, working for the biggest clubs.
Maradona37
Well-known member
Yeah, they keep talking like their players are superstars, and everyone else's are inferior, but that is PL hype. Technically a lot of them are mediocre.
There's no rhyme or reason to rate Mainoo and Rice over Ruiz and Olmo outside of Arsenal and Man U hype, Guehi over Le Normand, Bellingham over Rodri, pretend that Foden is an unstoppable genius. And so on.
The fact is it is far too lazy to just blame Southgate, as I have said. Some people think simplistically - yes Southgate is poor, but the players must take some responsibility too. Having Pep as manager and not Southgate won't make Bellingham a proper technician. It won't make Rice better on the half-turn, a more progressive passer. It won't make Pickford stop being a clown and be a better goalkeeper. It won't make Kane any more athletic.
Managers can help a lot but they aren't magicians ffs. A top manager won't make awful players world-class. And, as this case proves, a terrible manager won't make SO MANY so called amazing players unable to control a ball or play half-decent football. If they were as good as claimed, they'd be able to bypass the Southgate disadvantage a lot better than they have.
They simply are far too bad when you watch them for it ALL to be about the coaching. That's a lazy, uninformed opinion.
These guys get hyped to the moon, then they play Slovakia and get outplayed by someone like Lobotka - a solid player with no hype, but has always been competitive at the top level with Napoli because he has a football brain and knows how to play sensible, simple pass and move football. That's what they do - they talk their players up and then seem amazed when they're 1/4 of the player on grass they are in the media.
The previous 'golden generation' was very overrated too - athletic merchants who suited PL style of that era but not international style. They've been blaming the managers for decades. Surely, at some point, they have to realise the players are the common denominator.
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Capello did nothing of note after the england job right? Great manager in his time. Saying that was never going to elevate an average england team.
He was a poor choice by the FA, barely spoke english along with all his staff. Apparently had the Italy game on during a tournament and was actively cheering for them
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We'll see what Soughtgate manages to do after this. Pretty universally accepted he's a terrible manager with 0 tactics. He doesn't get anything out of the players strengths. It's completely irrelevant who is a technically superior player between a handful of players unless both teams are being coached in the exact same way.
A manager gets the best out of what they have. Plenty of technically very good players in that england squad. Certainly better than what Southgate managed to get out of them.
He was a poor choice by the FA, barely spoke english along with all his staff. Apparently had the Italy game on during a tournament and was actively cheering for them
.We'll see what Soughtgate manages to do after this. Pretty universally accepted he's a terrible manager with 0 tactics. He doesn't get anything out of the players strengths. It's completely irrelevant who is a technically superior player between a handful of players unless both teams are being coached in the exact same way.
A manager gets the best out of what they have. Plenty of technically very good players in that england squad. Certainly better than what Southgate managed to get out of them.
Maradona37
Well-known member
'Pretty universally accepted he's a terrible manager with 0 tactics. He doesn't get anything out of the players strengths.'
Yes, but if they're as good as hyped he shouldn't drag them fully down either.
Come on, it's obvious that the likes of Olmo, Ruiz, Rodri, Zubimendi are more technically gifted in the short game (small spaces, passing, ability to play combinations) than guys like Rice, Gallagher, 'Trent' and Bellingham. Half of them are nowhere near as hyped, but still.
Just watch that the other night - Ruiz was turning, playing in small spaces, creating space, playing combos in a way I have NEVER seen from Rice or Bellend.
The way Olmo turned away from mainoo in a tight space and instantly found space and drove up the pitch - turning a defensive problem into an attacking opportunity in a flash - is something you'll never see from bellingham.
All through the game they were resorting to hoofs from Pickford and the defenders. Southgate knows they can't play their way out from the back against Spain, he's a bad manager but he's not thick.
If you think Pep could get the English players to play like Spain then I believe that's wrong.
'Plenty of technically very good players in that england squad'
Still not as good technically as other nations have. I bet you'd call Bellingham 'very good technically', and I would vehemently disagree.
Yes, but if they're as good as hyped he shouldn't drag them fully down either.
Come on, it's obvious that the likes of Olmo, Ruiz, Rodri, Zubimendi are more technically gifted in the short game (small spaces, passing, ability to play combinations) than guys like Rice, Gallagher, 'Trent' and Bellingham. Half of them are nowhere near as hyped, but still.
Just watch that the other night - Ruiz was turning, playing in small spaces, creating space, playing combos in a way I have NEVER seen from Rice or Bellend.
The way Olmo turned away from mainoo in a tight space and instantly found space and drove up the pitch - turning a defensive problem into an attacking opportunity in a flash - is something you'll never see from bellingham.
All through the game they were resorting to hoofs from Pickford and the defenders. Southgate knows they can't play their way out from the back against Spain, he's a bad manager but he's not thick.
If you think Pep could get the English players to play like Spain then I believe that's wrong.
'Plenty of technically very good players in that england squad'
Still not as good technically as other nations have. I bet you'd call Bellingham 'very good technically', and I would vehemently disagree.
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Tell you what then, new rules in football: mark the technical skill of each player out of 10 and whichever team has the highest score wins!
Pep wouldn't try and get England to play "like Spain", he'd get them to play to their strengths. You're acting like there is one way to play football.
Ruiz, Rodri and Zubimendi are technically better, is that relevant though? Rice has his strengths, as does Bellingham. Their roles shouldn't be short one touch passing to control a game.
Pep wouldn't try and get England to play "like Spain", he'd get them to play to their strengths. You're acting like there is one way to play football.
Ruiz, Rodri and Zubimendi are technically better, is that relevant though? Rice has his strengths, as does Bellingham. Their roles shouldn't be short one touch passing to control a game.
Messigician
Senior Member
But Yamal and Nico play for Barca so it’s fine
Maradona37
Well-known member
I didn't say they were better players - Bellingham is a better player overall than Ruiz, because he has more athleticism generally and can get into the box, and has achieved more at a top club. However, Ruiz will always be a better fit for a team that plays like Spain.
I agree there's not just one way to play football. However, technically gifted combination players are the only way to dominate a game. Someone playing like Bellingham will be a moments play, and it's likely a team of those will play poorly throughout a game but still win, because they have better finishing ability in the box.
But to dominate matches, you need technical wizards. England don't have that and haven't had it for many years, which is why they get passed off the park even against minor nations. It's not just Southgate or Capello.
Lampard and Gerrard used to get wanked over for scoring goals in the hustle and bustle of the PL - but then you put them up against 'small, inferior' nations whose players (like Lobotka) were less Roy of the Rovers and more made to play simple pass and move. What happened? They got passed off the park. And the English media couldn't work out why. How could this happen? Gerrard scores screamers and tries 80 yard hollywoods, Lampard arrives in the box, how can they get passed off the pitch?
There's no one way to play football, but there's also a reason why teams full of technical wizards and who play great pass and move are the most dominant in history and generally regarded as the best of all time (Pep's Barca. Brazil 70, Holland 74, Spain 2008-2012, man City now being a far better team than United in the 90s etc). There are exceptions but football is about teamwork, dribbling passing, pressing and dominating the opposition, before scoring. It should never be about being a totally lacking in cohesion team who gets by off the cuff by letting the opposition outplay you then being better in the boxes thanks to individual brilliance (like Real Madrid and Man United play). Sometimes it works, but real football fans don't respect that.
I agree there's not just one way to play football. However, technically gifted combination players are the only way to dominate a game. Someone playing like Bellingham will be a moments play, and it's likely a team of those will play poorly throughout a game but still win, because they have better finishing ability in the box.
But to dominate matches, you need technical wizards. England don't have that and haven't had it for many years, which is why they get passed off the park even against minor nations. It's not just Southgate or Capello.
Lampard and Gerrard used to get wanked over for scoring goals in the hustle and bustle of the PL - but then you put them up against 'small, inferior' nations whose players (like Lobotka) were less Roy of the Rovers and more made to play simple pass and move. What happened? They got passed off the park. And the English media couldn't work out why. How could this happen? Gerrard scores screamers and tries 80 yard hollywoods, Lampard arrives in the box, how can they get passed off the pitch?
There's no one way to play football, but there's also a reason why teams full of technical wizards and who play great pass and move are the most dominant in history and generally regarded as the best of all time (Pep's Barca. Brazil 70, Holland 74, Spain 2008-2012, man City now being a far better team than United in the 90s etc). There are exceptions but football is about teamwork, dribbling passing, pressing and dominating the opposition, before scoring. It should never be about being a totally lacking in cohesion team who gets by off the cuff by letting the opposition outplay you then being better in the boxes thanks to individual brilliance (like Real Madrid and Man United play). Sometimes it works, but real football fans don't respect that.
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Messigician
Senior Member
Chelsea 2004 nearly went unbeaten and were the most dominant team in the world
Maradona37
Well-known member
Excellent team, but nobody in their right mind would rate them anywhere near Pep's Barca, the best Brazils, Spain etc.
Messigician
Senior Member
Southgate has resigned
Potter in
Potter in
Messigician
Senior Member
We don’t know
We struggled to break down defensive teams like Inter and 2012 Chelsea
Chelsea 2004 might be peps Achilles heel
I didn't say you said they were better players did I?
You absolutely don't need technical wizards to dominate a match. Also claiming no one knew why Gerrard and Lampard didn't work together? It was well known and always spoken about how we should only start one of them, also Scholes should have been the focus in the midfield, incredibly technically gifted. Again though, poor management to not see this.
You absolutely don't need technical wizards to dominate a match. Also claiming no one knew why Gerrard and Lampard didn't work together? It was well known and always spoken about how we should only start one of them, also Scholes should have been the focus in the midfield, incredibly technically gifted. Again though, poor management to not see this.
Maradona37
Well-known member
They're still not regarded anywhere near those teams in global history, which is my point.
That's also because it's easier to play defensively and counter-attack than to be proactive and break down defensive teams. That's why counter-attack works a lot despite teams being outplayed. Everybody still knows the Barca teams were better, despite losing.
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